Why there is no ammo or components. It's not a conspiracy.

[jcwit]

So thats what happened, you no good, low down, white stripped skunk, &#$^(^%$@. So there!!!!!!!!










Just kidding

 

[mossberg]

If there was a conspiracy to keep ammo out of civilian hands you'd think they would exclude cops from that huh?

Obviously they've all been told to say they have been cut back.

 

[Ned Kelly]

Local and state police are not federal.

FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA to mention a few are federal. Supposedly their ammo contractor can no longer meet their demand for ammo.

reasons could be....

1)They are stockpiling it. But why?
2)They are practicing a lot more. But why?
3) Agencies are being expanded. More agents are being recruited. More weapons are being purchased.But why?

Why would the federal government all the sudden start expanding and tooling up its intelligence and law enforcement agencies in the last several months?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Why would the federal government all the sudden start expanding and tooling up its intelligence and law enforcement agencies in the last several months?

I know you really want to find a conspiracy, but the prices increases and difficulty in finding for some of these calibers started years ago.

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

I know you really want to find a conspiracy, but the prices increases and difficulty in finding for some of these calibers started years ago.

That's what I have thought. .223/5.56 has gone up in price steadily since about 2003 if my mind serves me correctly, same with 9mm. Funny how those are the same calibers our troops use in their M16's and M9's or 226's. I guess the conspiracy crowd needs a reason to stockpile Reynold's wrap. Not to say there aren't other conspiracies out there, but this ain't one of them.

Damian

 

[sohcgt2]

This country has been funding a war effort for almost 8 years along with a weak economy and you guys complain about hard to find ammo and increased ammo prices. Shame on you. Your parents or grandparents or great grandparents didn't complain in the 40's when all of this country's resources were redirected to the war effort. They didn't even have copper to make pennies and you complain that Wal-Mart has no bullets at bargain prices. I say again shame on you.

Local and state police are not federal.

FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA to mention a few are federal. Supposedly their ammo contractor can no longer meet their demand for ammo.

reasons could be....

1)They are stockpiling it. But why?
2)They are practicing a lot more. But why?
3) Agencies are being expanded. More agents are being recruited. More weapons are being purchased.But why?

Why would the federal government all the sudden start expanding and tooling up its intelligence and law enforcement agencies in the last several months?

Prior to 2002 the Department of Homeland Security did not even exist and now ...big brother is buying all your ammo. Stockpiling ammo, expanding forces, training agents...but why?
probably to secure your borders since you cry about illegals taking your jobs, or to secure your planes from future hijacking attempts, or guard your infrastructure from terrorism. Shame on you. Those who came before you gave and sacrificed so you could live in the greatest country ever concieved and you are unwilling to cut back on shooting, spend more for ammo, or search a little harder to find ammo. Shame on you, you may not deserve to live in this greatest of countries unwilling to do your part. My grandfather fought at Iwo Jima, My father and his brother both in Korea, another uncle in Vietnam, I served as did my son. Shame on you for your conspiracy theory. Support your country's war effort and be glad you live in a country where it is legal to own bullets.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

This country has been funding a war effort for almost 8 years along with a weak economy and you guys complain about hard to find ammo and increased ammo prices. Shame on you. Your parents or grandparents or great grandparents didn't complain in the 40's when all of this country's resources were redirected to the war effort. They didn't even have copper to make pennies and you complain that Wal-Mart has no bullets at bargain prices. I say again shame on you.

Ha, I say shame on you for comparing out piddly effort in the WOT with the struggle of WWII. I don't think you have a good comprehension of the relative demands and risks upon our country with WWII versus the WOT.

Shame on you for your conspiracy theory. Support your country's war effort and be glad you live in a country where it is legal to own bullets.

Yes, I can tell you are one of the few patriots left. We should never question our government and always support the government's decisions without question.

 

[sohcgt2]

Ha, I say shame on you for comparing out piddly effort in the WOT with the struggle of WWII. I don't think you have a good comprehension of the relative demands and risks upon our country with WWII versus the WOT.
Yes, I can tell you are one of the few patriots left. We should never question our government and always support the government's decisions without question.

You misunderstand my point, or feel that you could do a better job of keeping this country secure than our combined military forces.
We are six years in to a war that has no exit strategy. Our military has depleted some of its supply through use and some through downsizing prior to this war. Now six years in to a war our military and political leaders thought would last six months (remember the first gulf war) those same leaders realize they did not complete the supply side preperations for an extended conflict. Now think back to 1970 when .223 ammo was available at every hardware store in town. Thats right it was not available because it was being shipped to S.E. Asia. Its not available today for the same reason except this time its going to S.W. Asia. If you had served in the military you would understand that they (our soldiers in harms way) need that ammo to defend the freedom you take for granted. Thank you for recognizing that I am a patriot and know that if called on I will serve to preserve the freedom you take for granted again. I apologize if this seems a rant but I believe in God, Country, and Self.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If you had served in the military you would understand that they (our soldiers in harms way) need that ammo to defend the freedom you take for granted.

Not sure what military service has to do with it? It seems pretty clear that soldiers need ammo, whether one has been in the military or not. I don't think this forum is appropriate to discuss the political aspects of whether or not the WOT has made us more or less safe. I don't think there is a consensus opinion on that.

 

[ServiceSoon]

Has the military increased their demand since military operations started after 2001?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Has the military increased their demand since military operations started after 2001?

Article on the demand, as well as the need for a second source instead of just ATK can be found here. This article is part of what led me to start this thread in the first place. Katrina was the real teacher here, not just military demand. A single supply source is just too risky if something were to happen to it.

A piece of that article from 2005. A good bit of this second sourcing came on line full strength in 2008 which is part of the reason for a shortage in components at the moment, though the conspiracy folks will continue to say it's a strategy by the administration to deprive us of ammunition.

This second site is currently operating but not complete. It is scheduled to be finished in 2010.

One case in point is small arms ammunition. The military relies on a single production facility, the U.S. Army's Lake City Ammunition Plant, a government-owned facility run by ATK. This is a terrific operation. Lake City also is the exception to the rule that surge capability is absent in the defense industrial base. After 9/11, as demand for small caliber ammunition went through the roof, Lake City increased its production from 300 million rounds a year to 1.2 billion. It is prepared to increase that further to at least 1.5 billion rounds if required.

The Army saw the need to enhance the ammunition industrial base even further. It is moving towards a second source producer of small arms ammunition. The second source will produce 300 million rounds per year with the possibility of an additional 200 million. The second source will be geographically separated from Lake City. The Army envisioned the second source as a low risk supplement to Lake City, one that would maximize U.S. content and have a demonstrated capability in supply chain management. Together with the further expansion of production at Lake City, the Army could purchase nearly 2 billion rounds of small arms ammunition a year. The Army's pursuit of a second source for ammunition is a good example of acquisition reform.

http://lexingtoninstitute.org/839.shtml

 

[Ned Kelly]

((((([[[[[["""This country has been funding a war effort for almost 8 years along with a weak economy and you guys complain about hard to find ammo and increased ammo prices. Shame on you. Your parents or grandparents or great grandparents didn't complain in the 40's when all of this country's resources were redirected to the war effort. They didn't even have copper to make pennies and you complain that Wal-Mart has no bullets at bargain prices. I say again shame on you.


Quote:
Local and state police are not federal.

FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA to mention a few are federal. Supposedly their ammo contractor can no longer meet their demand for ammo.

reasons could be....

1)They are stockpiling it. But why?
2)They are practicing a lot more. But why?
3) Agencies are being expanded. More agents are being recruited. More weapons are being purchased.But why?

Why would the federal government all the sudden start expanding and tooling up its intelligence and law enforcement agencies in the last several months?

Prior to 2002 the Department of Homeland Security did not even exist and now ...big brother is buying all your ammo. Stockpiling ammo, expanding forces, training agents...but why?
probably to secure your borders since you cry about illegals taking your jobs, or to secure your planes from future hijacking attempts, or guard your infrastructure from terrorism. Shame on you. Those who came before you gave and sacrificed so you could live in the greatest country ever concieved and you are unwilling to cut back on shooting, spend more for ammo, or search a little harder to find ammo. Shame on you, you may not deserve to live in this greatest of countries unwilling to do your part. My grandfather fought at Iwo Jima, My father and his brother both in Korea, another uncle in Vietnam, I served as did my son. Shame on you for your conspiracy theory. Support your country's war effort and be glad you live in a country where it is legal to own bullets."""))))]]]]]

The military has its own dedicated ammo manufacturing facilities and there is no shortage of metals right now.

The only parts of the government that acquire mass ammunition from private suppliers are intelligence and law enforcement.

Also more rounds were fired per year in the Vietnam war than are fired now and there was never a shortage in ammo in the private sector. So your argument is moot.

Infrastructure security is a vague term up for broad interpretation.

As far as Mexico there are plenty of volunteers willing to patrol the border if only the US govt. would step aside and let them do it.

I hardly see how massive amounts of ammo consumption are needed to put an Air marshal on an airplane flight.

Which by the way. Where is the quote feature at?

 

[JKimball]

So how is this not a conspiracy? The government doesn't want us to have ammo so they buy it all.

The way they are spending money in Washington these days, they could leave us high and dry without ammo with the stroke of a pen.

Ok, so maybe I don't really believe that, but it is easy to make a conspiracy out of it.

 

[JDoe]

What is really going on?

Ammo shortages across the U.S., my range has a 5 box maximum purchase now, Walmart's shelves are bare and ammo manufacturers are laying off people? What is really going on?

ATK CCI/Speer in Lewiston cut about 8 percent of their workforce.


Federal Cartridge cutting workers this month

 

[TexasRifleman]

Walmart's shelves are bare and ammo manufacturers are laying off people? What is really going on?

Did you read the articles you posted?

ATK has 17,000 employees. They laid off 130 or so.

That's less than one percent of their workforce. On top of that there is no mention of the TYPE of work performed by those laid off. Could be shipping, marketing, administrative, IT.... how do you know these jobs were involved in ammo production?

Over on another forum I read they are wailing on about a "Secret Executive Order" to cut back ammo production.

I love a good conspiracy myself but a 0.75 percent workforce reduction doesn't strike me as much of a conspiracy.

I'm still waiting to see something, anything, besides the simple fact that both the government and civilian shooters are just simply buying the living snot out of everything being made.

 

[jcwit]

It does amount to about an eight percent reduction in the Lewiston plant. If you google the Lewiston local they've had more than one lay off since Nov.

With that said I still do not believe its a conspiracy. I do believe we are our own worst enemy.

 

[Ned Kelly]

The administration could be paying ammo manufacturers to idle workers.

 

[Jeff White]

Time out! Some of you need to go restock on tinfoil, the mind control rays might be getting through . In the meantime we aren't going to waist any more bandwidth discussing conspiracies. Encore is running Conspiracy Theory with Mel Gibson this month...contact your cable or satellite provider...get it out of your system there, not at THR ok.....