Why they wore gunbelts...

Swampman said:
Phil Spangenberger makes a pretty good case for the use of spare cylinders in the Old West times.
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There's no photographic record of it. There's no written record of it. There's no archeological record of it being done during the war. Yes the Colt Paterson came with an extra cylinder before they put loading levers on them but stopped when they did. Cased sets sometimes had an extra cylinder but those were for collectors. A few people might have done it but it wasn't common by any means. Cylinders were hand fit back then. You couldn't just pick up a cylinder and expect it to work correctly. If it was a common practice then why did CW guerrillas carry 4-6 revolvers. Extra cylinders would have been a lot lighter. And why pray tell would the average man back then feel the need for a fast reload? The old west wasn't remotely like Hollyweird portrays it.
 
hawg said:
There's no photographic record of it. There's no written record of it. There's no archeological record of it being done during the war. Yes the Colt Paterson came with an extra cylinder before they put loading levers on them but stopped when they did. Cased sets sometimes had an extra cylinder but those were for collectors. A few people might have done it but it wasn't common by any means. Cylinders were hand fit back then. You couldn't just pick up a cylinder and expect it to work correctly. If it was a common practice then why did CW guerrillas carry 4-6 revolvers. Extra cylinders would have been a lot lighter. And why pray tell would the average man back then feel the need for a fast reload? The old west wasn't remotely like Hollyweird portrays it.
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I agree. What we see in TV and Movies is sex and violence, things that keep eyeballs glued to the screen.

Though there has been a trend in Norway towards slow TV. Some of the most popular programs have been a camera mounted on a ship, or train, and viewers watch the scenery go by. This is a seven hour Norwegian clip, and I got to say, this is better than elevator music



I have wondered about the claims of extra cylinders being carried for a fast reload. How were these extra cylinders carried? In dump pouches? How did they keep the caps on these cylinders? I have had lots of loose caps, takes work to find a tight cap that won't fall off while shooting, can't imagine a loose cylinder rolling around inside a pocket is going to retain caps, heck the balls may fall out also.

It is difficult enough to take a Colt cylinder off at the bench. I cannot imagine changing on on the back of a horse, or running on the ground. If the wedge falls off, the barrel will blow off on the next shot, and the pistol inoperable for any practical reason till a new one found.

My Remington M1858, at least the cylinder comes out with a pull on the base pin, it still is a fumblematic getting the new cylinder in.

I am going to claim, fire all charges in your cap and ball revolver, and the bad guys keep coming, the alternatives were, pull out your knife

DMDRSKe.jpg

or run. I have read a number of Civil War era accounts of individuals bushwacked by Indians, and they died with bullets, spears, or arrows in them. The American Indian was a better shot with his bow than the average settler was with a firearm. People have forgotten how frightened Westerners were of Comanche and Kiowa raiding parties: mounted Indians would sweep in and kill everyone before an effective defense could be mounted, steal everything they could, and leave just as quickly.
 
Slamfire said:
I agree. What we see in TV and Movies is sex and violence, things that keep eyeballs glued to the screen.

Though there has been a trend in Norway towards slow TV. Some of the most popular programs have been a camera mounted on a ship, or train, and viewers watch the scenery go by. This is a seven hour Norwegian clip, and I got to say, this is better than elevator music



I have wondered about the claims of extra cylinders being carried for a fast reload. How were these extra cylinders carried? In dump pouches? How did they keep the caps on these cylinders? I have had lots of loose caps, takes work to find a tight cap that won't fall off while shooting, can't imagine a loose cylinder rolling around inside a pocket is going to retain caps, heck the balls may fall out also.

It is difficult enough to take a Colt cylinder off at the bench. I cannot imagine changing on on the back of a horse, or running on the ground. If the wedge falls off, the barrel will blow off on the next shot, and the pistol inoperable for any practical reason till a new one found.

My Remington M1858, at least the cylinder comes out with a pull on the base pin, it still is a fumblematic getting the new cylinder in.

I am going to claim, fire all charges in your cap and ball revolver, and the bad guys keep coming, the alternatives were, pull out your knife

View attachment 1124556

or run. I have read a number of Civil War era accounts of individuals bushwacked by Indians, and they died with bullets, spears, or arrows in them. The American Indian was a better shot with his bow than the average settler was with a firearm. People have forgotten how frightened Westerners were of Comanche and Kiowa raiding parties: mounted Indians would sweep in and kill everyone before an effective defense could be mounted, steal everything they could, and leave just as quickly.
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Read the Kiowa’s version. Pretty revealing too.

Today, even with semiautomatic pistols, hitting an intended target person is hard to do on a percentage of shots basis. Lots of nervousness to go around—even the shooters.

Watch the evening news about the many random shootings in DC, Chicago, or Baltimore. Fifty shell casings with maybe one person hit by one, just one. Or the spray of fire coming from a drive by caught on a security camera. Lots of gun fire not much hit. Nearly as many accidental hits as intentional ones.

Not saying I volunteer as a target, but in the wild, the probability of being shot (or vice versa, hitting an intended person) is still low.
 
hawg said:
There's no photographic record of it. There's no written record of it. There's no archeological record of it being done during the war. Yes the Colt Paterson came with an extra cylinder before they put loading levers on them but stopped when they did. Cased sets sometimes had an extra cylinder but those were for collectors. A few people might have done it but it wasn't common by any means. Cylinders were hand fit back then. You couldn't just pick up a cylinder and expect it to work correctly. If it was a common practice then why did CW guerrillas carry 4-6 revolvers. Extra cylinders would have been a lot lighter. And why pray tell would the average man back then feel the need for a fast reload? The old west wasn't remotely like Hollyweird portrays it.
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A lot of guerrilla troops used multiple pistols carried n pummel holsters due to the hit and run fighting they did. Much faster to pull a second,third ... sixth pistol than to change a cylinder or 2 or to reload a pistol on the back of a horse. With confederate troops yhe manuel of arms was quite different than in the union "rebels" initially brought what they had and picked more or better arms along the way most union cav units were only issued 1 pistol and one rifle. Logistics were a mess on both sides as new weapon development occurred and transitioned into use on the field.

Whether true or not it was written in the record of the 8th va cav that their commanding col traded their single shot carbines for 12 ga double barrel shotguns.
 
Skgreen said:
Thank goodness threads don't have to involve the subject of reloading / handloading,,,,,,,,,,,, or do they?
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Well it’s a thread and if you pull it you’ll get back to reloading. For instance, I was a casual Civil War relic hunter (with & without a metal detector) when I lived in Centreville, VA. In numerous locations I found likely campfire/cooking pit remains with many, many small blobs of once molten lead, many unshot cast bullets of course, and other soldier’s “trash.” Never found any bullet molds. (There and in other locations I also found buttons, buckles, nails, spikes, knives, spoons and such.) Edit: and shot shell remains which I thought were later 19th century, not civil war,but maybe not.

One can say with confidence many of the tens of thousands of both Confederate and Union troops bivouacked in winter quarters Centreville over the course of the war were reloaders or just loaders, I guess.
 
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CQB45ACP said:
Well it’s a thread and if you pull it you’ll get back to reloading. I was a casual Civil War relic hunter (with & without a metal detector) when I lived in Centreville, VA. In numerous locations I found likely campfire/cooking pit remains with many, many small blobs of once molten lead, many unshot cast bullets of course, and other soldier’s “trash.” Never found any bullet molds.

One can say with confidence many of the tens of thousands of both Confederate and Union troops bivouacked in winter quarters Centreville over the course of the war were reloaders or just loaders, I guess.
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I was a casual relic hunter also. I found one .36 caliber bullet mold at a campsite. I found bullets buttons, knives, knapsack hooks, pieces of clay pipes. I found a union breast plate and a mangled US belt plate etc. The one thing I never found was a Confederate belt plate.



stillquietvoice said:
A lot of guerrilla troops used multiple pistols carried n pummel holsters due to the hit and run fighting they did. Much faster to pull a second,third ... sixth pistol than to change a cylinder or 2 or to reload a pistol on the back of a horse. With confederate troops yhe manuel of arms was quite different than in the union "rebels" initially brought what they had and picked more or better arms along the way most union cav units were only issued 1 pistol and one rifle. Logistics were a mess on both sides as new weapon development occurred and transitioned into use on the field.

Whether true or not it was written in the record of the 8th va cav that their commanding col traded their single shot carbines for 12 ga double barrel shotguns.
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Many southern cavalry companies swapped rifles for shotguns. Some southerners used those run what you brung guns all through the war.
 
westernrover said:
or Cowboy hats. Admittedly, the Stetson was invented around 1865, so it did exist in the period, though not until well after the California Gold Rush days. Even during the Civil War era (and the Comstock Lode in the west) it was but a novelty. It certainly didn't crown many cowboys' heads until the 20th century.

Near as I can tell, if there was any one hat that was more common in the old west, it would have been the derby/bowler. This wasn't unique to the west, but characteristic of the whole US. Gentlemen (the rich or powerful) wore top hats. For the working class, flat caps were popular in the west as well as all over, but probably more so in the cities and where people worked in factories. The bowler was the most popular brimmed hat. If a man got by well enough, his hat looked like a bowler. If he wore rags, his bowler's brim was probably drooping and looked tattered or he just wore a soft hat without any particular style -- a frumpy piece of felt; see Walt Whitman.

In many ways Stetson's first "Boss of the Plains" hat was like a bowler with a flat wide brim, mixing in some of the mexican sombrero style. The common sombreros back then did not have the comically wide brims seen on some today, but still would have been wide enough to be unfashionable with anglos. The modern "cowboy" hat really came into with the Cattlemen of Texas -- not what I consider "the West." The brim is turned up on the sides, supposedly to keep the lasso from knocking it off. In Alta California, the Vaquero (or "Buckaroo" if you couldn't pronounce Vaquero) wore a flat-brimmed hat.

Another hat that was phenomonally popular in the late 19th century and early 20th century, the first period in which the "cowboy" hat could have enjoyed any popularity, was the straw boater. I've seen a photograph of miners on the Comstock Lode in the 1880's where one was wearing a boater. The others were wearing bowlers in various conditions. The boater really came into popularity in the early 20th century and in the summer. During this time, the Bowler had given way to the Homburg as far as fur hats were concerned. Although the Homburg had its own history, it was in the practical sense, a Bowler with a center dent. By the 1920's, the Fedora was eclipsing the Homburg and continued in popularity until men mostly stopped wearing any kind of semi-formal hat at all. Now for nearly sixty years we've had no hat popular at all but the ball cap, usually with some kind of legible inscription, emblem, or logo.
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Very interesting. You must have done a lot of research on the subject. Now i know something i didn't know before. Still like the movies where the hat never comes off in a fight, a windstorm, or a stampede.
 
hawg said:
Many southern cavalry companies swapped rifles for shotguns. Some southerners used those run what you brung guns all through the war.
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Southern Cavalry was lucky to have anything, early in the war. The South was strapped by resources, materials, and men.

At the Battle of Kernstown, CSA General Turner Ashby reported one of his men rode bare back and his only weapon was a club! More or less, they had to acquire equipment from the Yankees.
 
Slamfire said:
Southern Cavalry was lucky to have anything, early in the war. The South was strapped by resources, materials, and men.

At the Battle of Kernstown, CSA General Turner Ashby reported one of his men rode bare back and his only weapon was a club! More or less, they had to acquire equipment from the Yankees.
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This is true. Many southerners supplied their own guns until they could pick up something better off the battlefield.
 
Soonerpesek said:
Drop 5 or 6 lit M80's at your feet and don't move..........................let's see how un-serious the injuries are.................:cool:
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They're not that powerful. More like an old school Black Cat firecracker. They may bring blood, may even penetrate but they won't be serious injuries. The balls will only go a few yards.
 
hawg said:
They're not that powerful. More like an old school Black Cat firecracker. They may bring blood, may even penetrate but they won't be serious injuries. The balls will only go a few yards.
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So the shards of flying brass wouldn't hurt anything.........?!?!.............
 
I’ve not scene mention of a book entitled Packing Iron by Rattenbury. It has details on both holsters and belts used.

Maybe in Missouri gunbelts weren’t commonplace but in the west like Arizona, though up to Montana they were.

I think Hollywood has it that everyone was armed, and I think it’s a little overdone. Certainly not the unarmed mass populous that’s been portrayed by some in this thread. Somewhere in the middle.
 
Soonerpesek said:
So the shards of flying brass wouldn't hurt anything.........?!?!.............
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I know some folks here don’t like YouTube because why I don’t know but I’ve seen YouTube videos of cooking off ammo and it does penetrate ballistic gel enough to do serious harm. I also recall the TV Mythbusters doing something. It’s not trivial but probably not fatal.
 
CQB45ACP said:
I know some folks here don’t like YouTube because why I don’t know but I’ve seen YouTube videos of cooking off ammo and it does penetrate ballistic gel enough to do serious harm. I also recall the TV Mythbusters doing something. It’s not trivial but probably not fatal.
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You're talking about brass cased ammo with a crimped bullet. That has some pressure behind it. A cap and ball cylinder has no real pressure. Have you ever pulled a loaded ball from a cylinder? it's really easy.

Bazoo said:
I’ve not scene mention of a book entitled Packing Iron by Rattenbury. It has details on both holsters and belts used.

Maybe in Missouri gunbelts weren’t commonplace but in the west like Arizona, though up to Montana they were.

I think Hollywood has it that everyone was armed, and I think it’s a little overdone. Certainly not the unarmed mass populous that’s been portrayed by some in this thread. Somewhere in the middle.
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Hollyweird vastly overplays gun use in the old west. There were no one on one gunfights in the streets save the Hickok/Tutt fight and that took place at 75 yards and maybe a couple of saloon fights. Hollyweird would have you think there were gunfights every day. There were no cut down holsters, no buscadero or drop loop holsters. No hammer thongs to keep a gun in the holster, no leg ties. Drawing a gun was usually a two handed affair. Holsters fit the guns snug to keep them from falling out. That's why Hollyweird invented leg ties back in the early days when they used original holsters. Original holsters covered all of the cylinder and most if not all of the hammer. People in town didn't walk around armed all the time. Cowboys weren't armed on ranches. Most cowboys didn't even own guns, a lot of them didn't even own a horse. All you could count on them owning was their saddle. Carrying guns on most ranches were forbidden as was drinking and cursing. If a cowboy needed a gun the ranch supplied it.
 
Soonerpesek said:
So the shards of flying brass wouldn't hurt anything.........?!?!.............
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Brass? From a dropped cylinder? The cap won’t come apart any more than when fired in battery. Without a barrel the ball will have less than a 1/4” to build velocity. It won’t suddenly convert to fragmentation grenade mode.
 
hawg said:
You're talking about brass cased ammo with a crimped bullet. That has some pressure behind it. A cap and ball cylinder has no real pressure. Have you ever pulled a loaded ball from a cylinder? it's really easy.



Hollyweird vastly overplays gun use in the old west. There were no one on one gunfights in the streets save the Hickok/Tutt fight and that took place at 75 yards and maybe a couple of saloon fights. Hollyweird would have you think there were gunfights every day. There were no cut down holsters, no buscadero or drop loop holsters. No hammer thongs to keep a gun in the holster, no leg ties. Drawing a gun was usually a two handed affair. Holsters fit the guns snug to keep them from falling out. That's why Hollyweird invented leg ties back in the early days when they used original holsters. Original holsters covered all of the cylinder and most if not all of the hammer. People in town didn't walk around armed all the time. Cowboys weren't armed on ranches. Most cowboys didn't even own guns, a lot of them didn't even own a horse. All you could count on them owning was their saddle. Carrying guns on most ranches were forbidden as was drinking and cursing. If a cowboy needed a gun the ranch supplied it.
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No. If it’s easy to do I’ve never done it. My mom asked frequently why I did everything the hard way.

I’ve read other accounts of the Wild West being more as you say. I have as much difficulty believing them as I do Hollywood’s version.
 
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