Doing a little leisure reading on the Secret Service, I find the P90 figures prominently in photos of the emergency response team. There's been plenty of debate about the 5.7X28 on these boards. Anyone know anything about the Secret Service's decision process on the P90?
Why's the Secret Service using the 5.7X28 P90
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Evil Monkey
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Full auto...........among other reasons I'm not familiar with.
Pigspitter
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I've always been under the impression that its a compact gun, minimal overpenetration, and carries a lot of firepower for its size with the 50rd mag. as well as being accurate and controlable
Zundfolge
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50 rounds of full auto that fits under a suit coat better than an MP5K or Uzi (or one of those silly Micro Uzis).
5.7mm is actually pretty useful in full auto.
5.7mm is actually pretty useful in full auto.
My guess would be..
1. Very Compact & Light
2. Controllable in full fire
3. Capable of armor piercing
I can't think of anything else that meets those qualifications at this time, it seems like a 5.56 weapon would be hard to control in full auto if it were that small, and a 9mm or .45 would not do well against armor. Not debating the merit of these weapons, I think the 5.7 is overrated- but it is very low recoiling while still being decently effective against armor.
1. Very Compact & Light
2. Controllable in full fire
3. Capable of armor piercing
I can't think of anything else that meets those qualifications at this time, it seems like a 5.56 weapon would be hard to control in full auto if it were that small, and a 9mm or .45 would not do well against armor. Not debating the merit of these weapons, I think the 5.7 is overrated- but it is very low recoiling while still being decently effective against armor.
Pigspitter
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You know, I have a sneaking suspicion that the 5.7 would make a nifty varmint rifle...
Hatterasguy
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Its easy to hide and packs a big punch. The 50 round mags are pretty good too.
It can also punch through body armor better than 9mm.
Also remember that FN sells the hot rounds to military and LE, the civilians have to load their own. The hot version of the 5.7 is a pretty good round with a full auto bull pup. They probably train to do a 3-4 round burst into the center mass.
It can also punch through body armor better than 9mm.
Also remember that FN sells the hot rounds to military and LE, the civilians have to load their own. The hot version of the 5.7 is a pretty good round with a full auto bull pup. They probably train to do a 3-4 round burst into the center mass.
MachIVshooter
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Secret service has very different criteria than a SWAT team or elite military unit. They want very controllable fire with high volume at a target or targets that are likely quite close. They have counter sniper guys as well, but that's not the job of the ones standing around the big man. And at 900 rounds per minute, you're not so worried about what one 5.7x28 projectile will do.
While I'm no fan of the round, I think it is more effective than the .380 cal. Ingram M-11's they've used in the past, which were also very difficult to control with a 1,200 RPM cyclic rate in a 3.5 pound pistol. They empty the 32 round mags in a second and a half, and will string vertically for all but the strongest and most proficient user. The P-90 has greater range, greater penetration and is much more controllable, at the cost of a bit larger dimensions and an extra 2 pounds.
That said, for a PDW role, I'd prefer my semi-auto 5.56mm PLR-16 to either of the above mentioned guns. It's as light as the M-11, much more powerful than the 5.7x28, and more easily concealed than a P-90. With 20 round mags, the thing can be carried under a jacket no problem. And they're very controllable in rapid fire.
While I'm no fan of the round, I think it is more effective than the .380 cal. Ingram M-11's they've used in the past, which were also very difficult to control with a 1,200 RPM cyclic rate in a 3.5 pound pistol. They empty the 32 round mags in a second and a half, and will string vertically for all but the strongest and most proficient user. The P-90 has greater range, greater penetration and is much more controllable, at the cost of a bit larger dimensions and an extra 2 pounds.
That said, for a PDW role, I'd prefer my semi-auto 5.56mm PLR-16 to either of the above mentioned guns. It's as light as the M-11, much more powerful than the 5.7x28, and more easily concealed than a P-90. With 20 round mags, the thing can be carried under a jacket no problem. And they're very controllable in rapid fire.
Dionysusigma
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After having handled both a PLR-16 and a true P90, I'd have to go with the P90, for what their job is. If I was defending myself, the PLR would be fine, but if I was tasked with having to carry something day in and day out, keep in concealed, protect someone very important, and possibly have to deal with multiple targets in a huge hurry, the P90 would be my first choice as well.
The only problem I had with it was that it's slow and awkward to reload, but that's probably just because I only got to fire two magazines before I had to hand it back. The 50 rounds on-tap compared to the 20 that the PLR can conceal is also quite nice. Also nicer recoil, since A) it's a smaller round and B) it's got something you can hold to your shoulder and face.
The only problem I had with it was that it's slow and awkward to reload, but that's probably just because I only got to fire two magazines before I had to hand it back. The 50 rounds on-tap compared to the 20 that the PLR can conceal is also quite nice. Also nicer recoil, since A) it's a smaller round and B) it's got something you can hold to your shoulder and face.
MachIVshooter
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Beta-C mag on the off-side
The PLR is kinda awkward with it, though. I prefer normal 30 round P-mags for blastin'
And yes, I have two PLR's. One is for sale, BTW.
Hatterasguy
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LWRC and other AR manufactures are also introducing a lot of super short barrel AR's for PDW use.
LWRC even makes a Repr with a 6in barrel for those that prefer a 7.62X51 up close. The 5.7 is a very good round, but a 7.62 Hornady TAP round at 10ft will turn the bad guy inside out.
LWRC even makes a Repr with a 6in barrel for those that prefer a 7.62X51 up close. The 5.7 is a very good round, but a 7.62 Hornady TAP round at 10ft will turn the bad guy inside out.
MachIVshooter
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Not out of a 9" tube. You think the 5.56 suffers from short barrels, chrono the 7.62.............
Personally, I'd really go for an MP5/10 in this application. Even over my beloved PLR. But I guess the secret service has the same weaklings that the FBI did, who can't handle the 10mm auto
i've shot the P90 a bit, in a match, even, (though i haven't 'trained' with it) and i bought one of the earliest PS90s and shot it quite a bit, and ALL of my friends have PS90s.
cool concept, but i don't really like them, even on FA. i've seen too many malfs (out of dozens of different guns) and they are difficult to clear. the ergos for shooting are good, but all other manipulation pretty much sucks. granted, it may be comparable to other subguns, but i hate it.
i'd hate to need that gun.
cool concept, but i don't really like them, even on FA. i've seen too many malfs (out of dozens of different guns) and they are difficult to clear. the ergos for shooting are good, but all other manipulation pretty much sucks. granted, it may be comparable to other subguns, but i hate it.
i'd hate to need that gun.
Sunray
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"...Why's the Secret Service using..." Because they have the budget to buy whatever they want. Mind you, it is a bit shorter than an MP5(not by much. Just 180mm.) and uses a rifle cartridge. King Obama needs the best protection.
Sebastian the Ibis
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+1
I'll bet that the secret service is assuming that any threat they have to shoot at is a (highly) trained assassin wearing armor. The 250lb drug addict, wearing a T-shirt, we have to worry about is not what they worry about. He won't get anywhere close to POTUS.
Maverick223
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I am not a big fan of the 5.7x28mm cartridge, especially when chambered in a pistol...but if there is one thing the P90 is well suited for it is concealed carry as a PDW. IMO it is the best too for the Secret Service's job, as it is a small, very controllable platform, that affords good performance when fully automatic. When you are limited to semi only, I feel the Uzi (full size) is a better platform for similar tasks.
Grey Morel
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pigsplitter said:
I suspect a 22 hornet would be pretty B.A. in full auto as well. Imagine a scaled up American 180...
If you had to have a 5.7x28 varmint gun, the TC Encore can be had in that caliber as a complete gun from the TC custom shop, or as a spare barrel from TC as well as a dozen other makers.
Carter
Member
Few reasons:
1. Concealable with a stock (thanks to bullpup design)
2. 50 round mag
3. the military round actually does some good damage
4. laser like trajectory
5. totally controlable on full auto
6. ambi controls
7. government loves FN products, duh
8. downwards ejection that doesn't pelt the guy next to you with brass
9. and lets face it...it just looks cool
1. Concealable with a stock (thanks to bullpup design)
2. 50 round mag
3. the military round actually does some good damage
4. laser like trajectory
5. totally controlable on full auto
6. ambi controls
7. government loves FN products, duh
8. downwards ejection that doesn't pelt the guy next to you with brass
9. and lets face it...it just looks cool
C-grunt
Member
I have a friend who has a brother in the Secret Service and from what I have heard they have not been very impressed with the P90. Its prone to malfunction and apparently the magazine can pop off easily if the weapon is dropped.
But for a concealable, auto weapon that can defeat armor at close range, I cant think of really anything else.
He did just send a video of a select fire Glock 31 (.357) with a shoulder stock being fired. That thing is impressive.
But for a concealable, auto weapon that can defeat armor at close range, I cant think of really anything else.
He did just send a video of a select fire Glock 31 (.357) with a shoulder stock being fired. That thing is impressive.
I see many people mentioning that it is concealable. Interestingly enough I have most often seen the P90 used in roles where that is not even an issue. It has been gentleman like the ones pictured below. When it comes to fitting under a suit coat I've seen MP5s but no P90s used. This also reflects what I have heard from people working for the secret service.
Secrete Service agent where Bush voted in Texas.
man jumps white house fence and agents with p90s respond. Note the target happy dog going after an agent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNj-LfHLRA
The P90 is being used in roles where concealability doesn't seem to be a factor at all.
Secrete Service agent where Bush voted in Texas.
man jumps white house fence and agents with p90s respond. Note the target happy dog going after an agent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNj-LfHLRA
The P90 is being used in roles where concealability doesn't seem to be a factor at all.
Girodin, thanks for posting those pics. You posted the very ones I'd noticed in the first place, but I didn't want to seem contrary by mentioning I'd actually referred to the emergency response team. Initially I thought, well the uniformed guys probably use the same weapon as the plain-clothes guys because of typical departmental issue reasons. But Secret Service is more likely to employ mission-specific weapons.
That being said, I think the reasons people mentioned above are right. Armor-piercing, etc. I am interested to know if C-grunt's contention that they haven't held up well is shared by many in the Secret Service.
That being said, I think the reasons people mentioned above are right. Armor-piercing, etc. I am interested to know if C-grunt's contention that they haven't held up well is shared by many in the Secret Service.
DustyVermonter
Member
I think MachIVshooter is on to something with the PLR16 as far as secret service weapons go, having never shot either I don't have much to stand on but if I had to choose one to protect the big man, I'd say go with the PLR16. Although, I'd really prefer they use slingshots
C-grunt
Member
Next time I see my buddy Ill ask him to get more info on the subject from his brother.
But like I said before, is there really anything else in the P90s role? maybe a really short M4 style rifle?
Also, regarding Girodin's pictures. Why the extensive use of sub machineguns? Why would someone choose a P90 over a rifle for White House exterior security? Why wouldnt the guy in the back of the SUV be armed with a rifle?
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