Win 244 for 9mm

[Viking painter]

Hi all, hope you’re having a great holiday weekend. So I’ve been getting back around to loading 9mm and recently saw Winchester 244 available at my local gun shop for $32 a lb. I usually use Winchester 231 for standard 9mm, 45 acp, and 38 special loads as it is predictable, somewhat clean, economical, and most importantly always available in my area. So I was there picking up another jug of 231 and next to it saw it’s big brother 244. I’ve always thought of trying cfe pistol for the fouling eraser since I shoot jacketed bullets alot and also suppressed and have been told it works great for both of these purposes. Cfe was available but I looked at a burn rate chart and noticed 244 right above unique. Unique would be my first choice for standard pistol loads but I haven’t seen it around here for about 2 years. Could it be that Winchester/hodgdon came up with a powder like unique with a cfe additive? So, I realize that this powder isn’t new but it doesn’t seem to get a lot of talk about it like others do and I wondered why, so I bought some and did load work ups with bullets from 95 gr all the way to 147 gr. The powder looks like they mixed 231 with titegroup and is really dense like titegroup but smells like 231 but meters better . I tried it mostly in my 10.5” AR9 pistol with suppressor but also in g17,g19,and sr9c to give it a fair shake with all barrel lengths. Every load shot great! The top .3 gr of the load range were as clean as n320 if not cleaner, no flash or smoke to speak of, report was the same as 231 but seems a touch quieter from suppressor, and accuracy was incredibly good. I did a few strings of rapid fire from AR9 of 27 rds each and could grab the suppressor with my bare hand! Afterwards I took the cap off the suppressor and it was cleaner than any other powder I’ve used and that’s about all of them. I’ve also heard that the sd#s with 244 are outstanding but will have to find out for myself soon when I replace my chronograph( it took 3 to the dome with a 45 acp). Are any of you using this stuff??

 

[Charlie98]

I've loaded it in the 9mm, it's OK. For some reason, it leaves 'burn' marks on the brass... actually staining them. I also found the book velocities were mighty optimistic, I had to run it right up to the max to get anywhere near the velocities I get from Unique, and dink with the bullet seating depth. My notes say it gave me excellent accuracy, however... so there is that.

 

[Viking painter]

I've loaded it in the 9mm, it's OK. For some reason, it leaves 'burn' marks on the brass... actually staining them. I also found the book velocities were mighty optimistic, I had to run it right up to the max to get anywhere near the velocities I get from Unique, and dink with the bullet seating depth. My notes say it gave me excellent accuracy, however... so there is that.

I noticed the burn marks too but just figured it was because of the back pressure of the suppressor and blowback BCG. The excellent accuracy and squeaky clean suppressor was what I was most impressed with and velocity I couldn’t really tell because I shot my chronograph two weeks ago. Thank for the reply, I’m going to keep burning it up and get some chronograph numbers in a couple weeks when I get my pro chrono dlx. The 95 gr loads were less than 1” at 50 yards so that might be the best use for this powder.

 

[lordpaxman]

I did some 9mm load workups with 244 in case 231 went away. It worked as advertised, can’t say it was a lot cleaner, and I didn’t see scorched cases like TG does but it produced very nice groups. Most of my 9mm loads are N320 or Sport Pistol for competition so I haven’t burned a lot of 244.

 

[Charlie98]

I did some 9mm load workups with 244 in case 231 went away.

I've never used W231 in the 9mm, but I've used it in the .45ACP, where it does well enough. When I got W244 for a test powder, it was for both 9mm and 200grn .45ACP loads... compared to W231, the W244 require a lot more fine tuning than W231, and certainly more than Unique. Essentially, you load to max, and then dink around with COL to get a good burn coupled with reasonable velocity. I also found that with SportPistol as well. It may have been just my intended use, but it seems like you have to fiddle with the newer powders to get them to perform like the older powders... which were never any trouble. Dunno.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've never used W231 in the 9mm, but I've used it in the .45ACP, where it does well enough. When I got W244 for a test powder, it was for both 9mm and 200grn .45ACP loads... compared to W231, the W244 require a lot more fine tuning than W231, and certainly more than Unique. Essentially, you load to max, and then dink around with COL to get a good burn coupled with reasonable velocity. I also found that with SportPistol as well. It may have been just my intended use, but it seems like you have to fiddle with the newer powders to get them to perform like the older powders... which were never any trouble. Dunno.

That’s what I’ve found too. I haven’t bothered with extensive load development using off-the-books projectiles. The best test platform I have is probably the Fiocchi 142gr TCMJ .3555” I have a few thousand of them and they’re a great bullet for any 35 caliber pistol cartridge. But the only loading data is from Fiocchi - it’s in Italian, metric, and only for Fiocchi’s FREX powders - so a WHOLE lot of interpolation and research is required. I have lots of good loads using W231, Unique, 2400, 4100, Blue Dot and the older powders in 9mm, .38Spl, .357Mag/Max, .35Rem (Contender Super 14). But I’m not sure how W244 fits in the VV N320/FRex Green powder charge schema.

In 9mm I load it like Accurate No.7. It’s a good powder just not as flexible as W231, No.5, or Unique.

 

[Charlie98]

It’s a good powder just not as flexible as W231, No.5, or Unique.

+1

For a fast(er) powder, W231 is pretty forgiving... unlike something like TiteGroup, or even WST. I know there would be an uprising if Hodgdon ever dumped W231/HP38...

 

[Average Joe]

HP38 for me, same as w231, works well in 9mm.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

+1

For a fast(er) powder, W231 is pretty forgiving... unlike something like TiteGroup, or even WST. I know there would be an uprising if Hodgdon ever dumped W231/HP38...

You know it!

I have .38Spl loads for W231 ranging from 3.8-5.8gr, all standard pressure and with the same bullet, velocities as low as 575fps up to over 1000fps with 140gr jacketed. It’s almost as flexible as Unique.

 

[Tcruse]

HP38 for me, same as w231, works well in 9mm.

W244 is likely the replacement for HP-38. The burn rate and load weight have been close for me. I like the w244, but would choose CFE-Pistol if I had to have only one powder.

 

[Walkalong]

I tried W-244 in .45 ACP with 230 Gr Zero JHP bullets. I loaded some with 5.3 Grs W-244 and some with 5.3 Grs W-231. 1.245 OAL

5" 1911

75 Degrees 64% RH Sunny

W-244: 5.3 Grs

Hi=853
Lo=813
Avg=828
ES=40
SD=14

Shot very well.

W-231: 5.3 Grs

Hi=813
Lo=757
Avg=786
ES=56
SD=16

Shot very well, but my notes say W-244 had the edge.


I tested W-244 in 9MM with Berrys 124 Gr HBRN-TP. I loaded them with 4.4 Grs W-244 & 4.5 Grs W-231. 1.150 OAL

Same day. 75 Degrees 64% RH Sunny

Another 5" 1911

W-244: 4.5 Grs

Hi=1139
Lo=1115
Avg=1130
ES=24
SD=7


W-231: 4.4 Grs

Hi=1084
Lo=1073
Avg=1077
ES=11
SD=4


I also shot some RMR Matchwinners (1st Gen) with 4.0 Grs W-244. 1.075 OAL

W-244: 4.0 Grs

Hi=1122
Lo=1089
Avg=1109
ES=33
SD=11

 

[chevrofreak]

I did some 9mm load workups with 244 in case 231 went away. It worked as advertised, can’t say it was a lot cleaner, and I didn’t see scorched cases like TG does but it produced very nice groups. Most of my 9mm loads are N320 or Sport Pistol for competition so I haven’t burned a lot of 244.

I see 244 as Titegroup without the extra heat.

 

[lordpaxman]

I see 244 as Titegroup without the extra heat.

I wouldn’t characterize it quite that way. TG’s a very fast powder with a high energy density - low volume powder charge. 244 is very close to 231 on a burn rate chart, with the load data being very close to 231.
I bought a big jug of 244 in the good old days and with the load development I had done put it on the “must have” list and favor it over 231 now.

 

[Charlie98]

W244 is likely the replacement for HP-38.

That was my thought, and why I gave W244 a try. As I understand it, W231 is an expensive powder to manufacture, and as everyone is trying to trim production costs, coupled with the inane desire to 'go green,' I wouldn't have been surprised... wouldn't be surprised... if they finally axe W231. I thought the same way about the IMR Enduron powders, as the 'new and improved' versions of the traditional IMR powders... but everyone found those a bit wanting, I think, based on my own experience, and what other shooters were saying. I'm not surprised they axed those, and the IMR 'color' pistol powders.

W-244: 4.5 Grs

Hi=1139
Lo=1115
Avg=1130
ES=24
SD=7

That 4.5grn W244 load was my final load as well, with a 124grn RMR PRN bullet. Your 5" barrel gave you 100+ more FPS than my short 3.6" Kahr barrel, however. Looking at the Hodgdon data for the Berrys 124grn bullet, they give a velocity of 1131fps out of a 4" barrel... and it took you 5" to get that. That's what I meant about book velocities being a bit optimistic...

I see 244 as Titegroup without the extra heat.

I wouldn’t characterize it quite that way.

Nor would I. TiteGroup is really a island unto itself, it doesn't even compare to WST, which is also very close in burn rate. It's how it works that makes it so different.... and that can be viewed as good or bad, depending on what you are expecting.

 

[Viking painter]

I did some 9mm load workups with 244 in case 231 went away. It worked as advertised, can’t say it was a lot cleaner, and I didn’t see scorched cases like TG does but it produced very nice groups. Most of my 9mm loads are N320 or Sport Pistol for competition so I haven’t burned a lot of 244.

I found that it works as advertised as well but 231 was cleaner upon further testing. I only saw scorched looking cases shooting suppressed but found it wiped right off and the cases looked great under the carbon. The groups were incredible from 244 so great for bullseye shooting but my n320 load is really close in accuracy. My sport pistol loads are cleaner than any powder I’ve used but for some reason my guns hate it, accuracy sucks at all charges. For the price, the small charges used, the velocity achieved, ect, 244 is probably one of the most economical powders for range ammo out there.

 

[Charlie98]

My sport pistol loads are cleaner than any powder I’ve used but for some reason my guns hate it, accuracy sucks at all charges.

+1

I was shooting some 9mm up last week, loaded with SportPistol. Horrible accuracy. I thought it was me, but I always carry a box of factory with me... and that shot just fine. Further reloads, with BE-86 of all things, shot well, too.

 

[Jim Watson]

When W244 came out, it was thought to be a replacement for W231, made by a cleaner and less expensive procedure. One of the Hodgdon clan posted that W231/HP38 popular and as long as it remained so, they would keep it in the lineup.

Considering all the different sources of the same label powder, I wonder why they did not fudge the burn rate to match and market it as 231.1.

 

[Charlie98]

When W244 came out, it was thought to be a replacement for W231, made by a cleaner and less expensive procedure. One of the Hodgdon clan posted that W231/HP38 popular and as long as it remained so, they would keep it in the lineup.

Considering all the different sources of the same label powder, I wonder why they did not fudge the burn rate to match and market it as 231.1.

That makes 2 of us.

I know Unique has been 'reformulated' to be cleaner and such... I don't know why Winchester/Hodgdon didn't do the same. Actually, I do... ...W231 and W244 are quite far apart in performance, that would be a pretty hard sell.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I would have thought it would have been more reasonable for it to be a replacement for WSF, if it's in the Unique heat range, not replace 231.

 

[243winxb]

9mm Luger - Tarus G3C -
The starting powder charges of Alliant's Unique & Bullseye. 700X, HS-6, W244 all worked the action with no feeding problems. Hodgdon 3.6 grs 244. Bullets sized to .3562" to fit guns throat. COL 1.045" maximum.

Rifle Primer Test - fired CCI 400 & Federal 205 ok. All fired , using W244 powder.

 

[Viking painter]

+1

I was shooting some 9mm up last week, loaded with SportPistol. Horrible accuracy. I thought it was me, but I always carry a box of factory with me... and that shot just fine. Further reloads, with BE-86 of all things, shot well, too.

I went out today to give sport pistol another go and same bad accuracy from 4 different pistols! My be86 loads were also my gauge to see if it was me and they were all within 1.75” at 20 yds. I think I also found the spot for win244 with 135 gr RMR rn fmj. Tested 3.6,3.7, and 3.8 gr at 1.145 and they were great! 3.6 gr at 20 yds was .75” groups and this was 5 different strings with a 1036 fps avg and 8 sd avg! Clean as can be too, cases were perfect.

 

[Soonerpesek]

+1

I was shooting some 9mm up last week, loaded with SportPistol. Horrible accuracy. I thought it was me, but I always carry a box of factory with me... and that shot just fine. Further reloads, with BE-86 of all things, shot well, too.

I went out today to give sport pistol another go and same bad accuracy from 4 different pistols! My be86 loads were also my gauge to see if it was me and they were all within 1.75” at 20 yds. I think I also found the spot for win244 with 135 gr RMR rn fmj. Tested 3.6,3.7, and 3.8 gr at 1.145 and they were great! 3.6 gr at 20 yds was .75” groups and this was 5 different strings with a 1036 fps avg and 8 sd avg! Clean as can be too, cases were perfect.

Would 1, preferably both, of you tell me what the “horrible” accuracy was…?
I use a ASP in 9mm 147 coated and .38 158 coated with pretty good-for-me results.
Course I’m just shooting steel plates at 15-50 yards…

 

[Viking painter]

Would 1, preferably both, of you tell me what the “horrible” accuracy was…?
I use a ASP in 9mm 147 coated and .38 158 coated with pretty good-for-me results.
Course I’m just shooting steel plates at 15-50 yards…

Would 1, preferably both, of you tell me what the “horrible” accuracy was…?
I use a ASP in 9mm 147 coated and .38 158 coated with pretty good-for-me results.
Course I’m just shooting steel plates at 15-50 yards…

I like to see at least 3” groups at around 10 yds with initial load development and preferably 2”. I can hold my N320 loads to 1”-1.5” at 10 yds for reference but sport pistol was more like buckshot for me and I’ve tested 250+ rounds of it with 3.6”,4”,4.5”,5”, and 10.5” barrels. One thing I must say though is I’ve never pushed it into Alliants +p data which I will probably try as a last ditch effort before I put it away for a dire emergency. I have friends that get incredible groups with it and it just doesn’t work for me. I’ve tried American select, be, be86, unique, power pistol, red dot, all shot decent but sport pistol is a no go.

 

[Viking painter]

And I’ve tried 147, 135, 124, 115 gr

 

[Charlie98]

Would 1, preferably both, of you tell me what the “horrible” accuracy was…?
I use a ASP in 9mm 147 coated and .38 158 coated with pretty good-for-me results.
Course I’m just shooting steel plates at 15-50 yards…

very similar to Viking’s results. Out of my new HiPower, the SportPistol loads were giving me 6” groups at 21’ where factory, or the BE-86 loads were about 2-3”.