With guns like the Dagger and BRG9, why pay more for FN, Glock, Walther, H&K, etc?

[stchman]

I differ. I want a gun I can rely on if it were to come to combat.

Unless you or I are in the military, some kind of state or national guard, etc., the odds of us going into combat isn't a percentage point worth discussing.

Yeah, but when your life and the lives of your loved ones is at stake do you really want to explain what a great deal you got on some clone that had a great rebate?
Not me.

I see people with POS Jennings, Cobras, Jimenez, etc. Apparently they don't see it the same as you.

So am I.
I would rather have a $500 Glock and fifty rounds of ammo than some clone and 500 rounds of ammo.

You're looking at it through your rose colored glasses and your knowledge and experience.

At the end of the day, people have choices, I didn't think this was going to touch so many nerves with people.

 

[dogtown tom]

I differ. I want a gun I can rely on if it were to come to combat.


Yeah, but when your life and the lives of your loved ones is at stake do you really want to explain what a great deal you got on some clone that had a great rebate?
Not me.


So am I.


So am I.
I would rather have a $500 Glock and fifty rounds of ammo than some clone and 500 rounds of ammo.

****BTW the astronomical price of a Glock 17 Gen 3 has not changed in almost two decades.

 

[daniel craig]

Why buy a sports car when you can get a Honda civic?

Why buy a truck when you can get a cheaper van?

Why buy a house when you can get a cheaper apartment?



It's not always about the money. Some people like specific brands, some people have very specific ergos requirements (ever held a Walther CCP or PPQ?), Some people like spending more money than they need to.

 

[dogtown tom]

Unless you or I are in the military, some kind of state or national guard, etc., the odds of us going into combat isn't a percentage point worth discussing.

Then why carry a handgun.
If you think only the military engages in combat you are sadly mistaken.

I see people with POS Jennings, Cobras, Jimenez, etc. Apparently they don't see it the same as you.

I see people driving junky used cars. Doesn't mean I want to drive one.
And not that you used the term "POS".........wait what? So even you acknowledge there is something better.

Buy what you can afford. When you can afford better, buy better.

You're looking at it through your rose colored glasses and your knowledge and experience.

And aren't you looking down your nose at those that prefer a better gun?

At the end of the day, people have choices, I didn't think this was going to touch so many nerves with people.

Anytime you post a "I don't like_______ and think they are ______" expect a discussion.

 

[CapnMac]

I am speaking of folks that want

Some of this will come down to decisions like buying a Kia versus an Infinity.

To swing this back more to THR-like comparisons, we need look no further than the AR market. Where prices can run from US$400 to US$4000, and the differences, the practical differences, are o a similar consequence as yesterday's clouds.

Now, that will not prevent this person or that person from forming, and exhorting, opinions based on price or the trade name, or any number factors.

We have choices. For my 2¢, that is a consummate good. It means each of us can find that "goldilocks" solution.

Now, what may be more behooving to each of us is to recognize that uniqueness for us also applies to others. And, I have to admit that is tough sledding for me. I find it difficult to not have an opinion on SCCY or Canik, or [insert something out of my "comfort zone"]. "You do you" is not as easy to do as to say.

I've seen high-dollar firearms foul the bed, I've seen low-dollar ones do the same, too.

 

[Charlie98]

I am speaking of folks that want an SD or HD gun and don't have the vast amounts of cash and aren't going to "vet" their gun by shooting 500+ rounds of whatever JHP ammo they are going to use.

500 rounds is a half case of ammo... it's not that much. I would think... I would HOPE... someone who was buying any firearm for SD or HD would pump at least that many rounds through it, not only to 'prove' it and the ammunition, but for general familiarity as well. You could carry a Glock as an SD weapon... but no matter how good it is, if you haven't trained with it, at the Moment of Truth... well, I wish you luck.

If it's just a range piece... that's a different story.

A genuine Glock beats a copy every time.

Tom, I'm curious... how often do you see Daggers, etc come across the table?

 

[Tinker-S]

Choices, choices, choices....
Buy what makes you happy, regardless of price.
It is all about preferences, and what debt people is willing to burden themselves with.
Somebody I knew said: I have very nice 1911s and other high end firearms, but I always keep a $200 POS, because in the event of a confrontation, the POS will go with the authorities, and I would not care.
It makes sense, because I think a confrontation will not take but 1 or 2 rounds down the barrel, so, who cares if this thing is capable of firing 10K rounds without failure or not?
I also know of people who went into combat, and, other than to zero their weapon, did not fire a single round in a fight!

 

[stchman]

Then why carry a handgun.
If you think only the military engages in combat you are sadly mistaken.

I gather we have different definitions of what combat is.

I see people driving junky used cars. Doesn't mean I want to drive one.
And not that you used the term "POS".........wait what? So even you acknowledge there is something better.

Buy what you can afford. When you can afford better, buy better.

I do agree that the old "ring of fire" guns are POS guns, that's no secret. I do also think that a $1000 poly striker gun isn't really a whole lot better than a $400 poly striker fired gun.

And aren't you looking down your nose at those that prefer a better gun?

Absolutely not, but there are MANY that do, they tout their $2300 H&K Mark 23, their $1000 FNX-45, etc., and look down on people that don't have one. Don't get me started on people that constantly bash on people that buy a Taurus.

Anytime you post a "I don't like_______ and think they are ______" expect a discussion.

 

[stchman]

This ain't like prescription meds, brand name vs generic.
The term "essentially" is meaningless.

A genuine Glock beats a copy every time.

The folks that own a Shadow Systems or a Zev would strongly disagree with you.

 

[Telekinesis]

OK, maybe I should have talked about the vast majority of us who are not going to be going into combat.
…
Quite frankly, most people that think they need that level of reliability don't need it either as they aren't going to be going into combat anytime soon.

I’ll freely admit that I’m far from the “average shooter”, but just because you’re not going into combat doesn’t mean you don’t need a reliable weapon.

For example, say you’re trying to be a knowledgable gun owner and decide to go to a shooting class. You spend $500 for the 2 day class, but between travel, lodging, time off from work, ammo, food, etc you have say $2,000 - $2,500 into the weekend. If your “not combat reliable” gun craps out on you 2 hours into the first day, you have just wasted a whole bunch of money because you wanted to save a couple hundred dollars. I’ve been there and was very happy that I brought a backup rifle.

Another way to look at it - as a competitive shooter say I have a gun with 99.5% reliability. Seems pretty good, right? That means during the monthly match of 250 rounds I will have between 1-2 failures on average.

Let that sink in. At a 99.5% reliability rate, I will have a gun that FAILS at every match I go to.



Like others have said, the difference between a Glock 19 and a Dagger is the testing - both from the company and from end users. Think about all the little things that major companies have had to fix. Like the Glock Gen 4 brass to face issue, or Sig’s extractor issues on the P220/226 family where they ended up having to do multiple redesigns before they got it right.

Very small things like the heat treat or temper of certain parts like springs, extractors, or ejectors can have significant impacts on the ultimate reliability of the weapon, and those tolerances are usually the first to be loosened when cutting costs.


Now if you want to ask why someone would choose a PDP over a Glock clone, there are a several reasons. As a competitive shooter who actually switched from a Glock to a PDP, the trigger was a big improvement (especially the competition trigger), but having an optic that sits lower on the slide, and better ergonomics were also big points in favor of the Walther.



If you like the Dagger, that’s fine. I like what PSA is doing and will probably buy one eventually. But just because someone wants a gun with a proven track record of reliability doesn’t mean they’re some dirty civilian wannabe operator trying to buy more gun than they actually need.

 

[Riomouse911]

I live in Ca. I have never seen a PSA Dagger, Canik, Tisas, etc.

Getting a PSA Dagger or other non-major maker gun is not easy, nor is it cheap, because they are not on an arbitrary list of “ safe” handguns for purchase.

The Gen 3 Glock 19,17, 26 are on this list, so folks buy those (and others) that are in the gun stores. “Off roster” guns, like newer Glock models, command a crazy premium.




Hopefully this stupid rule will get bounced, as it is nothing but an end-around if the 2A and has zero basis in “safety”.

Stay safe.

 

[Rexster]

I know that federal, state, and local police entities have tested Glocks, extensively. If I recall correctly, some military units have also tested and used Glocks. This means something to me, when I am selecting a tool that may save my life.

OK, let’s say that we do not need an LE/military level of performance, but are concerned about having a reasonably durable product, with well-established support, for such consumable parts as pins and springs.. Glocks, and some other polymer firearms, have a well-documented track record, in the US civilian market, and a history of manufacturer support. The Dagger, to select one example, is quite recent.

 

[tws3b2]

My Taurus g3c and my Sar b6 both $325 or under. Both work and work without fail. Taurus, Sar, S&W and Beretta.
The S&W I don't like shooting.
The Beretta, The only one to have to go back to the manufacturer for repair.
The Taurus keeps on shooting without fail.
The Sar keeps shooting without fail and I love shooting it.
If it works, it works.
Why would I want to spend more.

 

[stchman]

I know that federal, state, and local police entities have tested Glocks, extensively. If I recall correctly, some military units have also tested and used Glocks. This means something to me, when I am selecting a tool that may save my life.

OK, let’s say that we do not need an LE/military level of performance, but are concerned about having a reasonably durable product, with well-established support, for such consumable parts as pins and springs.. Glocks, and some other polymer firearms, have a well-documented track record, in the US civilian market, and a history of manufacturer support. The Dagger, to select one example, is quite recent.

I'm not really hedging my bets on that the military uses it. Heck the US military chose the Sig P320 over the Glock 19X. It appears that the US military is having their fair share of problems with the P320 while Glocks seems to just shoot.

 

[Mk-211]

The Army had a manual safety put on their 320's, so no issue.

What other problems?

 

[Rexster]

I'm not really hedging my bets on that the military uses it. Heck the US military chose the Sig P320 over the Glock 19X. It appears that the US military is having their fair share of problems with the P320 while Glocks seems to just shoot.

As I recall, some units used the G19, to include high-volume training, and, the G19 has been very popular as a private purchase item by some of the heavy hitters among the military folks. But, you are right, in that military selection is not, itself, such a big deal, in favor of a pistol. I put more value in the LE testing and usage, because if there are problems, with safety or reliability, the police union reps will usually raise a loud fuss about it. I worked for one of the largest PDs in the USA. Glocks have tested well. We had to buy our own duty pistols, within guidelines. When I was still working for the PD, specific Glock models were among several approved duty pistols. One favorable aspect of there being several pistols on the “approved list,” and that the PD is not buying and issuing the pistols, is that less politics and schmoozing are likely to be involved, because there is not going to be a big contract. I believe that all new cadets, where I worked, have to now start with a G17 MOS duty pistol, rather than having three to four choices, as in the past, but, the cadets are still expected to buy their own duty pistols. (Low-cost financing is available, for cadets to purchase the pistols.)

 

[dogtown tom]

Tom, I'm curious... how often do you see Daggers, etc come across the table?

Every week.
If PSA puts out the full size in gray with the ten mags and case for $300 I'll jump on one myself.

 

[dogtown tom]

The folks that own a Shadow Systems or a Zev would strongly disagree with you.

About reliability? I dont think so.
Gucci Glocks aren't immune to issues.

 

[dogtown tom]

I gather we have different definitions of what combat is.

When someone is shooting at me and I'm shooting at him.
It matters not where we are, what we believe in or whether we are wearing a uniform.
It could be a hoodrat, a drug addict, a carjacker, a bank robber or some guy fighting for his cause.

It's still combat.

 

[mljdeckard]

Here's the thing.

The whole point of Glock engineering was to identify and eliminate the common causes of failure in handguns. And they did a great job. Mostly with simplification. So I think....how do you mess that up if you reverse engineer it? It's not the same as failing to replicate something complicated and proprietary. If any tool like me can assemble a good Glock-off from aftermarket parts, why can't PSA (or anyone else) mass-produce them with a degree of QC?

My issued M-9 was dreadful. Issued for combat is not a good measuring stick.

The law of diminishing returns applies to many things related to guns. I have said for many years, Glocks are overpriced for how they are made and what they are made of. So, if these imitations are inferior, I say....let's find out? Let's do some head-to-head round counts, see when the failures start? If it is after the number most shooters will hit in their lifetime.....I don't care much.

Keep in mind, a lot of the Glock reputation stems from their wide use. Their wide use stems from the fact that Glock practically gave them away to police departments to increase their market share and visibility.

So, if a rookie comes to me and says; "In your concealed carry class, you told me to go to a pawn shop and find a used G-19. I just heard of these PSA knock-offs. Should I try one? Is it better or worse?" I would tell them to buy one and find out.

 

[bearcreek]

So, if a rookie comes to me and says; "In your concealed carry class, you told me to go to a pawn shop and find a used G-19. I just heard of these PSA knock-offs. Should I try one? Is it better or worse?" I would tell them to buy one and find out.

As long as that "rookie" is willing to run 3-5000 rds through that pistol before carrying it, using many different shooting positions and conditions, then sure, have at it. If they're not willing to do that, they should stick with a known entity, IMO. I taught an awful lot of "rookies" in my CCW classes and I guarantee that most would not be willing to put that kind of time and money into testing before carrying a gun.

 

[tarosean]

cloned Gen 3 Glock(which is a proven gun)

Yeah a proven gun with a major manufacturer backing it. I wouldn’t give .02cents for a dagger or whatever else, you’re speaking of.

 

[mljdeckard]

3-5000 is excessive for any carry gun, for anyone.

 

[bearcreek]

3-5000 is excessive for any carry gun, for anyone.

Upon what are you basing that statement?

 

[mljdeckard]

A lifetime of mentorship, and a military career spread over 32 years. 3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

I tell all of my carry students they need to run about 300 rounds through their carry gun with the ammo and mags they will carry to ensure reliability. I know full well most of them don't. When I deployed, I got maybe 1000 rounds total, and that was mostly me going out of my way to get more trigger time. If you are saying that someone needs to counter-test a new to them gun with 3-5000 rounds, most of them are going to break the gun.