Woman Harassed for Open Carry

[TAB]

As far as all of the fanciful things she COULD have done to have her LTCF pulled, NONE of them were mentioned in either the complaint to the Sheriff OR in the Sheriff's revocation letter. If ANY of those things happened, NOBODY thought it important enough to mention. There's no more evidence that she gave her firearm to a child to hold than there is that you brought down WTC 7 in a "controlled demolition".

we also just have her word of what happend... and her word of what was given too her. Yes I find it funny that the acts were not listed in great detail, but I also find it funny that we only have her side of the story.

 

[Aran]

I believe that the Sheriff is 80 years old and not the most dynamic character on earth. He tried (by his own admission) to please everyone and pleased no one.

What this REALLY is is a bunch of malicious busybodies taking advantage of an elderly man without a good grasp of PA state law in order to vindictively get revenge on somebody whom they couldn't bully directly. I'm thinking a defamation suit would tune those curs right up.

I'm not arguing against any of that. I'm just reminding everyone that she wasn't innocent little Clarabelle sitting quietly and politely on the bleachers. She helped earn herself the request to stay away, if nothing else.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"The original original thread got nuked for her protection just in case things escalated. I don't have it all saved, so I won't go more in depth than to say she didn't handle any part of it very well, by my estimation. I can't quote it, obviously, but she definitely aggravated the situation unnecessarily, trying to pull others into it."


WHAT?! you mean when she told her version of what happened it made her look bad enough circling the wagons and hiding even HER version was deemed wise? say it ain't so!

 

[TexasRifleman]

hiding even HER version was deemed wise?

It's ALWAYS wise to keep your mouth shut and tell your version to no one but your lawyer, even if your behavior was that of a Saint.

 

[Deanimator]

we also just have her word of what happend... and her word of what was given too her. Yes I find it funny that the acts were not listed in great detail, but I also find it funny that we only have her side of the story.

Uh, no. We have both the emailed complaint AND the revocation letter.

You MIGHT want to read the thread on the PAFOA website...

 

[Deanimator]

I'm not arguing against any of that. I'm just reminding everyone that she wasn't innocent little Clarabelle sitting quietly and politely on the bleachers. She helped earn herself the request to stay away, if nothing else.

That's like saying, "Well, if Mr. Cohn hadn't worn that kippa, nobody would have known he was Jewish in the first place!"

Sorry, my rights aren't contingent upon the extra-legal whims of ignorant bigots. You don't have to like people wearing yarmulkas OR guns openly. Conversely, they don't have to care one iota about your personal likes and dislikes. When you act tortiously in such a way as to interfere with someone's lawful activities, there are potential legal consequences. I hope the revokee avails herself of them.

So far, nobody's been able to elucidate any legally sufficient reason to revoke her LTCF. I'm not expecting anyone to either. The Sheriff's best bet is to fall on his sword, admit he was bullied into a bad decision and testify against the people who strong armed him in any civil suits pursued by the victim. I'd bet that she wouldn't go after him farther than that.

 

[Norinco982lover]

so what happened?

 

[Deanimator]

so what happened?

Reader's Digest Condensed version:

1. Woman OCs to kids' sporting events.
2. Anti-gunners petulantly complain.
3. Woman rebuffs petulant complaints.
4. Anti-gunners strong arm elderly (80 years old) Sheriff into revoking her LTCF.
5. Sheriff revokes LTCF for blatantly spurious (another has recently been revoked and reinstated for the same reason) reason (OC).
6. The Obama hits the fan, resulting in a letter, phone, email and letter campaign directed at the Sheriff, County Commissioners, District Attorney and media.
7. Legal action MUST now be taken because that's the ONLY way to reinstatement after a wrongful revocation.
8. SOMEBODY'S likely going to be hit up for legal fees and probably more in a civil suit.
9. Other civil litigation is probably in the cards.
10. Those who hate people who OC don't do their homework and make up a bunch of spurious allegations against the victim.

Clearer now?

 

[jahwarrior]

Reader's Digest Condensed version:

1. Woman OCs to kids' sporting events.
2. Anti-gunners petulantly complain.
3. Woman rebuffs petulant complaints.
4. Anti-gunners strong arm elderly (80 years old) Sheriff into revoking her LTCF.
5. Sheriff revokes LTCF for blatantly spurious (another has recently been revoked and reinstated for the same reason) reason (OC).
6. The Obama hits the fan, resulting in a letter, phone, email and letter campaign directed at the Sheriff, County Commissioners, District Attorney and media.
7. Legal action MUST now be taken because that's the ONLY way to reinstatement after a wrongful revocation.
8. SOMEBODY'S likely going to be hit up for legal fees and probably more in a civil suit.
9. Other civil litigation is probably in the cards.
10. Those who hate people who OC don't do their homework and make up a bunch of spurious allegations against the victim.

that's about the best "short" version i could've thought up; thanks for saving me the work. i hope people pay attention to #10 especially, and keep this thread from becoming another "OC is stupid" thread.

 

[RobNDenver]

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect. Whether they did or not is a matter of law. Nonetheless, even if it is legal to carry openly at a children's soccer match, Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

Some people just like to cause trouble, and stir things up. She may very well have that right, but she seems to be pretty damned uncivil in today's world. These open carry advocates are going to get the same kind of response as the rabid anti abortionists carrying pictures of fetuses and demonstrating in front of homes belonging to suppliers of Planned Parenthood and other family planning clinics.

Oh, they have the right to do it, but in a decent, polite society its just wrong to go out of your way to upset and annoy people.

 

[JDoe]

I'm just reminding everyone that she wasn't innocent little Clarabelle sitting quietly and politely on the bleachers. She helped earn herself the request to stay away, if nothing else.

What specifically was she doing to earn herself a request to stay away?

 

[Deanimator]

Oh, they have the right to do it, but in a decent, polite society its just wrong to go out of your way to upset and annoy people.

In an ADULT society, it's immature and pathetic to go out of your way to BE upset and annoyed.

Again, should Jews NOT wear kippas because anti-Semites don't like it?

Bullies are ALWAYS "upset and annoyed" when people refuse to BE bullied.

And had you done your homework, you'd know that they don't want her to carry AT ALL.

 

[jahwarrior]

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect. Whether they did or not is a matter of law. Nonetheless, even if it is legal to carry openly at a children's soccer match, Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

private organizations do NOT have the right to bar people from carrying on public property. local governments can't even do it, though they try. and, she has carried openly at many other games, without incident. this is a case of a few people making a big deal about nothing. and keep in mind, some people in PA only get their LTCF so that they can drive while armed.

 

[auschip]

The funny thing, is that since they pulled her concealed carry permit, she is required to OC. Talk about unintended consequences.

 

[VARifleman]

Aran and CD need to read Deanimator's post on the 10 steps this incident incurred. That sums it up, and if I want to open carry and someone tells me I shouldn't do that, I tell them it's my rights and if they don't like it they can walk away and ignore it.

 

[Kentak]

So, we have no detailed account of what transpired on the day in question from an objective source?

The implication is that the *only* thing that precipitated the complaints was the act of open carrying. Do we know that for a fact?

Does anyone care?

K

 

[General Geoff]

Yes, we know that for a fact. It has even been stated in the Sheriff's letter to her. THE ONLY thing she was doing was open carrying. She was not threatening, harassing, brandishing, or otherwise doing anything remotely illegal.

 

[Deanimator]

So, we have no detailed account of what transpired on the day in question from an objective source?

The implication is that the *only* thing that precipitated the complaints was the act of open carrying. Do we know that for a fact?

Does anyone care?

We have the complaint email to the Sheriff.
We have the Sheriff's letter of revocation.

Have you read EITHER of them?

If so, can you QUOTE for me any cause for revocation in EITHER other than open carry and the alleged "upset" attendent therefrom? If there were other more compelling reasons, do you suppose that the complainant OR the Sheriff would neglect to mention them? Why?

In Pennsylvania, is that a valid reason for revocation of a LTCF?

Do you care?

 

[K3]

I wouldn't be an open carry "starter" person myself. I don't condemn the person for wanting to open carry, but think that concealed would be infinitely smarter. Unless alot of mindset changes on the subject, open carry will not be good for gun owners in this day and age, IMHO. We aren't going to convert the whole world to our view. Hopefully we can convert some and keep the rest of them off our butt, and live in peace most of the time.

Minds have to be changed somehow. It would seem that a greater number of people exercising OC rights (in states that recognize them - damn you Texas)would be good for desensitizing folks as whole.

 

[Titan6]

Holy Smokes!

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect. Whether they did or not is a matter of law. Nonetheless, even if it is legal to carry openly at a children's soccer match, Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

Some people just like to cause trouble, and stir things up. She may very well have that right, but she seems to be pretty damned uncivil in today's world. These open carry advocates are going to get the same kind of response as the rabid anti abortionists carrying pictures of fetuses and demonstrating in front of homes belonging to suppliers of Planned Parenthood and other family planning clinics.

Oh, they have the right to do it, but in a decent, polite society its just wrong to go out of your way to upset and annoy people.

Kind of like you just did to me by comparing guns to aborted fetuses and simply making stuff when you don't know the facts. Sure you have the right to do it (except maybe that last part, I hear that could be slander) but it sure is annoying in polite society.

 

[NG VI]

What didn't make it to the final thread was how she confronted at least one or two parents over the issue before she got the letter from the league.

Your post is very murky. She confronted two other parents, or two other parents confronted her? Why would she confront people over her own attire? It makes more sense that they would confront her, and if so, why is that a good reason to pull her carry license?

 

[Deanimator]

Your post is very murky. She confronted two other parents, or two other parents confronted her? Why would she confront people over her own attire? It makes more sense that they would confront her, and if so, why is that a good reason to pull her carry license?

Because she refused to be bullied? Hmmm, maybe he wouldn't have meant to say that...

 

[NG VI]

However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect.

Flywheels. How can a soccer club possibly "control" anything? They have no way of securing public property in any meaningful way other than to ask people the ignorant busybodies who threw a fit don't like to leave, and since there is absolutely no legal ground for a group of people using public property for a public event to take control of someone elses' totally legal behavior, they are out of luck.

 

[NG VI]

Because she refused to be bullied? Hmmm, maybe he wouldn't have meant to say that...

That's what it looks like the idea is, I don't know why there are so many even on this board saying that open carry might very well be legal but they just know that something is up, and they don't like it. Or that she must be a head case because she had the audacity to do something legal and practice her civil right to open carry.

 

[damien]

The irony here is now that her CC is revoked, for the time being, for OC, she is going to have to OC 100% of the time, which everyone acknowledges is her right.

Hilarity will ensue.