R.W.Dale
Member
And I say you're arguing about which is the second SLOWEST repeater.
Get a pump or automatic and be done with it.
Get a pump or automatic and be done with it.
Woods gun.
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KodiakBeer
member
Part of the problem is that very few people even know how to operate a bolt action rifle. I'd guess less than 5%.... really! I'll bet most shooters have never even seen somebody that knows how to properly shoot a bolt rifle. Or if they did, he was just shooting single shots and not rapid fire.
You may be right about lever guns. I'd like to see a test using the same cartridges - and I wouldn't squawk about paying up with a case of beer if I was wrong!
You may be right about lever guns. I'd like to see a test using the same cartridges - and I wouldn't squawk about paying up with a case of beer if I was wrong!
I'd take that challenge. I can get off repeat shots with a bolt gun faster than the average Joe with his levergun and will equal someone who is really good with a rifle caliber levergun.
Those cowboy action shooters are using pistol calibers which require a much shorter lever throw. Plus they are usually loaded light. The distance the bolt moves is the same with both the lever and bolt action. With the lever action you push the lever away from you then pull it back. Working a bolt gun requires you to pull it back, then move it forward. In fact since the lever travels in an arc I'd say it requires further movement.
If you are working the bolt gun right it only requires 2 movements. I hit the bolt with the edge of my hand about half way between the base of my little finger and the heel of my hand knocking the bolt handle up. I catch the bolt handle in the hook of my little finger instantly pulling it rearward briskly. Since the human arm is capable of 2 movements at the same time I also roll my wrist to the left. As soon as the bolt hits the bolt stop I catch the bolt handle with the base of thumb and push it forward. At the same time I roll my wrist to the right to push the bolt handle down. While it does technically take 4 movements, since you can roll your wrist at the same time as you pull and push, it in effect only takes 2. I can do this without ever moving the rifle from my shoulder.
Throwing lead and hitting targets are not the same thing. Put up a paper plate at 50 yards and take 4 shots off hand as fast as you can, and still hit 4 out of 4. Factor in recoil from a rifle caliber instead of light pistol loads and a man who has practiced working a bolt rifle will stay right with anyone with a levergun.
Those cowboy action shooters are using pistol calibers which require a much shorter lever throw. Plus they are usually loaded light. The distance the bolt moves is the same with both the lever and bolt action. With the lever action you push the lever away from you then pull it back. Working a bolt gun requires you to pull it back, then move it forward. In fact since the lever travels in an arc I'd say it requires further movement.
If you are working the bolt gun right it only requires 2 movements. I hit the bolt with the edge of my hand about half way between the base of my little finger and the heel of my hand knocking the bolt handle up. I catch the bolt handle in the hook of my little finger instantly pulling it rearward briskly. Since the human arm is capable of 2 movements at the same time I also roll my wrist to the left. As soon as the bolt hits the bolt stop I catch the bolt handle with the base of thumb and push it forward. At the same time I roll my wrist to the right to push the bolt handle down. While it does technically take 4 movements, since you can roll your wrist at the same time as you pull and push, it in effect only takes 2. I can do this without ever moving the rifle from my shoulder.
Throwing lead and hitting targets are not the same thing. Put up a paper plate at 50 yards and take 4 shots off hand as fast as you can, and still hit 4 out of 4. Factor in recoil from a rifle caliber instead of light pistol loads and a man who has practiced working a bolt rifle will stay right with anyone with a levergun.
KodiakBeer
member
jmr40, you don't have to convince me! I was taught to shoot by my father, who learned on a Springfield in 1939 in the army. If you know what you're doing and you're shooting a good rifle that's well broken in, they can be shot amazingly fast.
I shot a sporterized Mauser in .243 for years and years - it's now my sons rifle. That bolt is buttery smooth and very fast. I once had two startled deer dash past at about fifty yards. I got off three shots - 1st deer, 2nd deer, then back to the 1st deer for a head shot because he was lying with his head still up.
One of my friends ambled over from a few hundred yards away to see who was shooting. They'd assumed some strangers had wandered in with a semi, because they knew I was shooting that old Mauser and the shots had been too close together for a bolt rifle. I then had to convince them I wasn't hiding a pistol on my person.
I've met people who are far, far faster than me! I watched a SEAL shooting a .308 and ringing a gong at 300 yards so fast his right hand was a blur.
I shot a sporterized Mauser in .243 for years and years - it's now my sons rifle. That bolt is buttery smooth and very fast. I once had two startled deer dash past at about fifty yards. I got off three shots - 1st deer, 2nd deer, then back to the 1st deer for a head shot because he was lying with his head still up.
One of my friends ambled over from a few hundred yards away to see who was shooting. They'd assumed some strangers had wandered in with a semi, because they knew I was shooting that old Mauser and the shots had been too close together for a bolt rifle. I then had to convince them I wasn't hiding a pistol on my person.
I've met people who are far, far faster than me! I watched a SEAL shooting a .308 and ringing a gong at 300 yards so fast his right hand was a blur.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Not really. I say that an automatic, taking into account that the lever is operated while coming down from recoil, is hardly faster than a levergun in the hands of a proficient shooter. Quicker at wasting ammo, not quicker at aimed fire. I agree on the pump action, it is very fast in action, also significantly quicker than a boltgun.
The problem is that most folks don't try to build any skill, let alone speed. Most are content to just make noise at the range. I spend a hell of a lot of time with single action revolvers and have to chuckle every time someone says they're too slow, to shoot or to reload. When I have absolutely no problem burning through a 550rd bulk pack of .22LR in just a couple hours.
I still disagree. I've spent enough time with both to know that it's physically impossible to work a boltgun as quickly as a levergun. Most so-called experts would agree. IMHO, anyone who thinks otherwise is biased and has never spent enough time with a levergun to learn its capabilities.
KodiakBeer
member
95% of bolt gun shooters don't even know the very basics of shooting a bolt gun. You can't build skill or speed, if you don't know how to shoot the rifle in the first place.
It's very possible you've never even seen a competent bolt action shooter. I'd guess most people haven't.
You may very well be correct about a lever gun being quicker, but I wouldn't bet any money on it until I saw a two good rifleman shooting identical cartridges from the two platforms.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
So somebody start a thread about how to shoot a bolt gun. 
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