The sterotypical woods gun is a .30-30 lever action. While Remington has introduced the R-25 in 7mm-08, .243 and .308, I wonder if these rounds are overkill for a woods gun. What about a .257 Roberts? Any other cartridges you'd recommend for an AR platform as a woods gun?
AR platform as a woods gun
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W.E.G.
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I'm not sure what you mean by a "woods gun."
Do you mean "hunting rifle?"
None of the four calibers you mention could be "overkill" for Virginia deer/bear.
I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hunt with my .308 "AR-type" rifle.
Plenty accurate, and not very heavy.
100 yards, laid over an ammo can.
Kalashnikov pictured next to .308 AR for scale
Do you mean "hunting rifle?"
None of the four calibers you mention could be "overkill" for Virginia deer/bear.
I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hunt with my .308 "AR-type" rifle.
Plenty accurate, and not very heavy.
100 yards, laid over an ammo can.
Kalashnikov pictured next to .308 AR for scale
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No big bore AR is ever going to make a good "woods gun" if you compare it to a 30-30 carbine.
If it's built on the .308 size receiver, it's going to be a behemoth to pack around, no matter what you do to try to lighten it or make it smaller.
rcmodel
If it's built on the .308 size receiver, it's going to be a behemoth to pack around, no matter what you do to try to lighten it or make it smaller.
rcmodel
Deer Hunter
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lightweight AR in 5.56, 6.8, 7.62x39, or even lightweight .308 based AR would be fine.
TCB in TN
Member
There are trade off to everything. When you talk about the 30-30 woods gun you are more than likely talkin either the Winny 94 or Marlin 336 and both are thin, light, short quick handling little rifles that can get'er done out to 100 or 150 yards. IMHO their biggest advantage is for stalking around in heavy brush where a bigger, longer, heavier gun is not so easily used. The downside to them is that once you get out to the edge of a field you may have to let one walk away. The .308 AR takes care of that problem but in a thicker, heavier more clunky package. Better than the average bolt gun maybe, but hardly the same thing. If you want to hunt with one then do so, but after handling both I would hardly say it was a real replacement!
El Tejon
Member
We really need to take off our shoes here at THR and define our terms.
What the devil is a "woods gun"? Is this a corruption of "brush rifle"?
The reason .30-30 and .35 REMs were referred to as "brush rifles" was that the non-spitzer bullets were not thought to deflect upon impact with brush between the hunter and the deer. Had nothing to do with the appearance of the platform.
The deer is killed with the bullet, not by the platform used by the hunter. If you want a "woods gun", why not go with a non-spitzer bullet rather than these rounds. All those cartridges work fine for deer, but would not fit into your parameters.
Any non-spitzer bullet, beware feeding problems. I have used 170 grain .30-30 bullets in a .308. Works great (it's a bolt gun) but may have problems in a self-loading mechanism.
What the devil is a "woods gun"? Is this a corruption of "brush rifle"?
The reason .30-30 and .35 REMs were referred to as "brush rifles" was that the non-spitzer bullets were not thought to deflect upon impact with brush between the hunter and the deer. Had nothing to do with the appearance of the platform.
The deer is killed with the bullet, not by the platform used by the hunter. If you want a "woods gun", why not go with a non-spitzer bullet rather than these rounds. All those cartridges work fine for deer, but would not fit into your parameters.
Any non-spitzer bullet, beware feeding problems. I have used 170 grain .30-30 bullets in a .308. Works great (it's a bolt gun) but may have problems in a self-loading mechanism.
Organdonor
Member
For deer I use one of my three 7.62 rifles...
For distance, it would be my AR-10.
Up close and personal, my Mini-30.
For all-around, my AR-15 in 7.62X39 with 16" M4 contour barrel.
For distance, it would be my AR-10.
Up close and personal, my Mini-30.
For all-around, my AR-15 in 7.62X39 with 16" M4 contour barrel.
shooting4life
Member
If you want the deer to fear you get a 50 beowulf upper for you ar.
twofourthree73
Member
Tarvis
Member
I think this argument is much like competition shooting: it's more about the guy squeezing the trigger than it is the gun he's shooting. If the shoe fits, wear it. An AR will work just fine as long as you have a good sling and can operate it properly. There may be better choices, but as TCB said, there are always trade-offs. There are several cartridges that would work well in an AR for a short to medium range on deer-size animals. If you're thinking about a "brush" gun using non-spitzer bullets as Tejon described, the 458 socom and 50 beowulf come to mind, but they shoot some serious bullets.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Wolfman_556
Member
I live out in the woods and use my 5.56 AR15 all the time.
It's an excellent varmint slayer.
It's an excellent varmint slayer.
MinnMooney
Member
DPMS has a new 6.5 Creedmore
I believe that this cartridge would work great for a more seditary type of hunting like still hunting or hunting from a stand. It's quite heavy but super accurate and fairly powerful.
Are you shooting past 100 yds? If not, anything will kill a deer so only worry about ease of carry and how well you can shoot it.
Better than a .30-30 Marlin/Winchester? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
Like someone else said, "It depends much more on the rifleman than the rifle." A miss with a Howitzer and you'll watch the deer walk away..... alibet, scared shi_less, but walking away none the less. A .22 LR thru the heart and you have venison for the winter.
I believe that this cartridge would work great for a more seditary type of hunting like still hunting or hunting from a stand. It's quite heavy but super accurate and fairly powerful.
Are you shooting past 100 yds? If not, anything will kill a deer so only worry about ease of carry and how well you can shoot it.
Better than a .30-30 Marlin/Winchester? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
Like someone else said, "It depends much more on the rifleman than the rifle." A miss with a Howitzer and you'll watch the deer walk away..... alibet, scared shi_less, but walking away none the less. A .22 LR thru the heart and you have venison for the winter.
rbernie
Contributing Member
You mean like this?
I've used both 7.62x39 and 6.8SPC ARs to good effect.
kentucky_smith
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For deer, I've used both a DPMS .308 and a 6.5 Grendel upper. This year, it'll either be the Grendel or a 6.5 Swede Mauser. The Grendel will dang near hang with the swede for a little ways, I'm sure the critters can't tell the difference.
Carphunter
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I use my 6.5 Grendel for deer. Also going to probably try my 10mm AR for deer this year too
It's one of the few semi's that I think would make a very good hunting rifle. They're accurate, excellent triggers are available, scope mounting is easy and you still have a cheek weld. The only real drawback that I see is weight and maybe balance. The lightweight version weighs in at around 8.5 lbs. Add a scope and a loaded mag and you're at 10 lbs. or more. That's a heavy rifle, but it's no behemoth. If you were hunting black bears or cougars I couldn't think of anything better.
Ironically, I think it's probably better suited to hunting than combat.
Ironically, I think it's probably better suited to hunting than combat.
D-Day
Member
I've carried my M1A through the thickest, most God-awful brush and foliage and trees you can think of in White Mountain National Forest; in the middle of the night. It wasn't that bad...except for getting thwacked in the face by pine tree branches.
rbernie
Contributing Member
My lightweight ARs weigh in at 6.5lbs and the rifle in the picture weighs in at 8lbs with optic and a 10rd magazine..
Having grown up with a .30-30 as a "woods gun" decades ago I will give my interpretation of what that term means.
A woods gun means a rifle that you are going to carry all day through thick brush and trees. Shots are going to be almost always 25 - 75 yds. You are typically hunting deer or black bear size game. This is the typical of hunting in the forests of western Washington and Oregon. I hear it may also be typical of some of the dense woods in the southeastern states.
What this means is that fine accuracy is not a priority. It should be light and easily carried in one hand for hours at a time. You don't need or want a lot of doo-dads attached to it as anything sticking out will get hung up on branches, vines, etc. Also, it needs to be heavy enough caliber for medium size game.
For all these reasons the .30-30 lever action rifle has always been popular. It is slim, slick sided, and balances perfectly in the hand which can easily wrap around the receiver. Some guys rely on it entirely. Others will have a .30-30 when they know they will be hunting through the dense woods and crowded draws, and a scoped bolt action like a .243 or .30-06 when they know they'll encounter large clear cuts or more open woods on ridge tops.
If I were to use an AR rifle for dense woods I would keep it as clean as possible to avoid hangups on brush. Iron sights, and I would think seriously about whether I would put a sling on it or not. Usually a woods gun is going to be in one of your hands while the other is pushing branches out of the way.
None of the cartridges you mention are overkill for the woods. It is the handiness of the rifle that matters. If you get the r-25 platform then you have the same size rifle regardless of the cartridge. So you might as well go for the cartridge most appropriate for the game you hunt. Any of them would be fine for deer. However, if you go for bear or boar then you probably want to 7-08 or .308.
By the way, the .243 cannot be overkill if you think the .257 Roberts is good. The .243 has more velocity but a smaller diameter and weight bullet. I would rate them about equivalent for woods range.
For a lighter "woods gun" you might consider one of the larger caliber AR15 versions. The 6.8 or 6.5 cartridges would all be pretty good up to deer. If you like them, then for the short ranges in the deep woods, the .458 and .50 cartridges for the AR15 might be fun. If there is a 10mm upper then that would certainly be interesting, too. This would be similar to using a .44 mag version of the lever action instead of the .30-30.
From what you describe I would think the AR15 in 6.5 Grendel would be a better woods rifle than a larger one in the .308 family.
A woods gun means a rifle that you are going to carry all day through thick brush and trees. Shots are going to be almost always 25 - 75 yds. You are typically hunting deer or black bear size game. This is the typical of hunting in the forests of western Washington and Oregon. I hear it may also be typical of some of the dense woods in the southeastern states.
What this means is that fine accuracy is not a priority. It should be light and easily carried in one hand for hours at a time. You don't need or want a lot of doo-dads attached to it as anything sticking out will get hung up on branches, vines, etc. Also, it needs to be heavy enough caliber for medium size game.
For all these reasons the .30-30 lever action rifle has always been popular. It is slim, slick sided, and balances perfectly in the hand which can easily wrap around the receiver. Some guys rely on it entirely. Others will have a .30-30 when they know they will be hunting through the dense woods and crowded draws, and a scoped bolt action like a .243 or .30-06 when they know they'll encounter large clear cuts or more open woods on ridge tops.
If I were to use an AR rifle for dense woods I would keep it as clean as possible to avoid hangups on brush. Iron sights, and I would think seriously about whether I would put a sling on it or not. Usually a woods gun is going to be in one of your hands while the other is pushing branches out of the way.
None of the cartridges you mention are overkill for the woods. It is the handiness of the rifle that matters. If you get the r-25 platform then you have the same size rifle regardless of the cartridge. So you might as well go for the cartridge most appropriate for the game you hunt. Any of them would be fine for deer. However, if you go for bear or boar then you probably want to 7-08 or .308.
By the way, the .243 cannot be overkill if you think the .257 Roberts is good. The .243 has more velocity but a smaller diameter and weight bullet. I would rate them about equivalent for woods range.
For a lighter "woods gun" you might consider one of the larger caliber AR15 versions. The 6.8 or 6.5 cartridges would all be pretty good up to deer. If you like them, then for the short ranges in the deep woods, the .458 and .50 cartridges for the AR15 might be fun. If there is a 10mm upper then that would certainly be interesting, too. This would be similar to using a .44 mag version of the lever action instead of the .30-30.
From what you describe I would think the AR15 in 6.5 Grendel would be a better woods rifle than a larger one in the .308 family.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Run&Shoot summed it up quite nicely.
Seems to me the drawback to an AR in this situation is its shape. If slung over the shoulder, it's slow to put to use. If slung across the body, it catches on brush. If you use the carry-handle, it's still slow to put to use, and you can't carry it at the balance point in the old tried-and-true style.
Face it: The AR has its place, but use as a brush gun just isn't really in the picture.
Seems to me the drawback to an AR in this situation is its shape. If slung over the shoulder, it's slow to put to use. If slung across the body, it catches on brush. If you use the carry-handle, it's still slow to put to use, and you can't carry it at the balance point in the old tried-and-true style.
Face it: The AR has its place, but use as a brush gun just isn't really in the picture.
rbernie
Contributing Member
True dat. But for a woods gun, 7.62x39 or 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel is all you really need, and that puts you into the standard AR15 form factor.
Dang, I wished I'd have known this before I carried my AR15 for dozens and dozens of miles thru the Texas scrub.
Actually, it's no more difficult to get into a shooting position with a slung AR15 than it is with, say, my Marlin 336s with sling. And a flattop AR with optic carries very naturally at it's balance point by grasping the forearm just in front of the magwell. (The point of not using a sling with a woods rifle is well taken; you'll find yourself rarely slung up and mostly carrying the rifle in one hand.. Look at the pic in Post #14, and you'll notice that the rifle has no carry strap/sling.) I have also found that the pistol grip shape does help you carry the rifle in a low-ready position with one hand and retain good control of the rifle. Finally, I also find the location and operation of the safety to be quick and easy-to-use in the brush.
YMMV, but I find my AR to be more than adequate as a brush gun. In fact my first 16" 7.62x39 AR build (with 1.5x-6X optic) replaced my 16" Marlin 336 30/30 as my standard brush rifle soon after I built it, and I've found no reason to regret that choice. Every time I have to go into the brush, I choose an AR and not any of the Marlins or even one of my Ruger Frontiers.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
rbernie, I can go from slung to shoot pretty quickly, but nowhere near as quickly as if I'm carrying a lightweight rifle at the balance point. I gotta say that the old Winchester 94 is one of the best for that.
I've hunted in thick stuff with my 9.5-pound Wby with its 26" barrel, but it wasn't nearly as handy as many other rifles...
To me, it's not, "It won't work," so much as, "There's some other stuff that's better."
, Art
I've hunted in thick stuff with my 9.5-pound Wby with its 26" barrel, but it wasn't nearly as handy as many other rifles...
To me, it's not, "It won't work," so much as, "There's some other stuff that's better."
, Art- Status
