Working up a load for a rifle (picture heavy)

[Mags]

I have seen a few posts of new reloaders such as myself, where a poster will ask which load is best for whatever rifle. Well we can always give them what load works best for us but the loader will miss out on the experience of working up a load. So this is how I work up a load, I am sure the veteran hand loaders can add even more information.

The data would be more complete if I owned a chronograph.

Bullet for all loads: .223 69 Grain Nosler BTHP
Case overall length for all loads: 2.26 in
Range: 50 yards outside, 40 degrees F
Data: Lyman 49th and Ramshot 4.4
Rifle: Bushmaster XM15, 16 in free floated 1/9 twist chrome lined barrel, stock trigger
Sight: Eotech 512 with 1 moa center dot
Position: bench with bags

First powder used was IMR 4895. Lyman shows a start of 22.5 and a max of 25.0
My loads used with group size in inches:
23 gr-2.81 in, 24 gr- extreme 5.26 avg 2.19 in, 25 gr-1.45 in



Next I used Reloader 15. Lyman shows a start of 23.4 and a max of 26.1
My loads used with group size in inches:
24.5 gr- extreme 4.04 avg 2.01 in, 25 gr-2.11 in, 25.5 gr-1.89 in


Last was Ramshot Tac. The Ramshot manual shows a start 21.6 max 24.0
My loads used with group size in inches:
22 gr-2.23 in, 23 gr- extreme 4.21 avg 1.09, 24 gr extreme 4.61 avg 2.37


So based on my groups I will be using 25 grains of IMR4895 for my regular loading of this bullet. Also remember to check for pressure signs when working up a load. With the Tac I noticed the lower charge was more accurate so that goes to show more powder does not always yield the desired results.

Had to throw in a pic of the rifle.

 

[Mags]

Individual Targets

 

[theshephard]

Twist rate?

This would be another good data point to share. What's the twist rate in your barrel? Shooting heavier 223 bullets like 69gr and up really needs something like a 1:8 or tighter.

 

[Mags]

1/9, as I understand it the 69 grainers are on the threshold of tolerability for the 1/9 twist rate. OP will be edited in the rifle line with this info as well. I am confident that with a magnified scope and maybe a better trigger that I can make those groups that performed well today even better with a lil' work at 100 yards; 1/9 twist rate and all!

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

Something different to try... The goal with a powder is to find the sweet spot that will allow you to have a wide tolerance in the charge. This makes the load very forgiving.

The photo shows an 8 shot group with each round increasing by .3grs. The 23, 23.3 and 23.6gr rounds all clustered closely. I've loaded 20 rounds at 23.3gr to test for 5 shot groups. This gives me a +/- .3 gr tolerance to work with, making the load potentially very forgiving during loading. The shot to the left was probably me.

If the powder doesn't give you a sweet spot, move on to another powder or bullet and don't waste any more time. What I have found is 8-10 rounds incrementally loaded seems to work well to prove the load.

 

[theshephard]

More thoughts..

I wouldn't give up on your trigger and scope quite yet. I think there are some things you could change in the meantime before you get there.

Some thoughts:
1) try spending more time with one powder, working in smaller increments, like .2gr.
2) is the bullet seating depth consistent across each round? You mention the COAL of the SAAMI spec, but how about OAL measured from the bullet ogive?
4) also, try a group of your favorite factory ammo to compare against as a benchmark - are you doing better or worse than that? If you're seeing no difference, I would suspect it's not the gun or the load, which brings me to my next point:
5) if you're interested in what just the gun and the ammo are capable of, try using a lead sled solo or something similar instead of the sandbags. This can remove an imperceptible physical twitch when pulling the trigger as you unconsciously anticipate the recoil. If I had to guess, looking at your groups, this is a good starting point - redo it all using a shooting rest before you start talking about a new trigger. Chances are your spread is more the shooter than the rifle(?).

Reason I ask all this is because I think you could get these groups tighter. I was working on similar loads the last few days at the range and these are the results I was getting. Granted, with a 20" bbl and a 1:8 twist, but your groups still seem kinda large at 50 yrds.
This first one is a five shot group of 69gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT w/ 24.3 gr of RE-15 @ 50yrds, seated to fit in the magazine.

This next one is a five shot group of 77gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT w/ 24.0 gr of RE-15 @ 100yrds, but these bullets are seated to be about .001 back from the lands of the barrel and consequently will not fit in the magazine.


I'm using a Lead Sled Solo to brace the gun.
Also using a scope here, a Vortex Diamondback 3-9x.
Temp was about 34 F, Humidity about 1012mb
Rifle is an Armalite M15A2NM, w/20"bbl @1:8 twist

 

[theshephard]

Also as a point of reference..

Fiocchi 62gr rounds were giving me about 1.5" group at 50 yrds. So try the shooting rest and see if you can bring the groups in that way. I'm bettin' you'd see some tighter performance that way.

And that scope.. I take it back - yeah, for just testing ammo, I'd probably try something other than that EOTech 512. I've never used one but looking at it online you probably would be better served with ye ole 3-9x scope, again just for the sake of testing your loads. Switch back to the EOTech for the field or whatever, knowing your ammo is golden.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Mags, looks like you are on the right track, but I do not think you are getting any reliable results to pick a load. It looks more like you just shot a little better on a couple of them. Sandbags are fine to use, and I think better than a lead sled. Especially with a little .223. Eotech is fine to use also. You might be able to find a better target to print out online though. Something with a 1 moa bull @ 50yds or the outside diameter the same size as your outside circle on your Eotech @ 50yds. If you can find a target that your dot barely covers the bull at your yardage I suspect your groups will start to look more like groups.

Are you using a front and rear bag?

 

[theshephard]

Try dry-firing a bit as well..

Kentucky, I almost agree with you that sandbags are as good as a lead sled. In terms of setting up a stable sight picture, I don't think there's any difference.

But, just speaking about myself, even with .223 after shooting all day, I've noticed myself getting a bit of a twitch, and when trying to remove variables from the equation, this is an easy one to get rid of. This is all the more important when looking for the tightest groups.

To see if you've developed a bit of a twitch during the day, try dry firing the gun in the exact same setup you've been using. Are you breaking clean and maintaining the sight picture spot on? If not, it's definitely time to think about a recoil reducing shooting rest for testing your loads.

If all's well and good with sandbags, rock on!

 

[Mags]

Are you using a front and rear bag?

No sir, just a front.

To be honest with all ya'll I think with an unmagnified optic and no lead sled my groups are pretty good. I am certain I am moving the gun a litle between each shot since I cant see the precise point of aim on the target with my Eotech and I am not locking my gun down in a lead sled.

These groups at 50 with the Eotech and .223 out of the AR15 are about as good with my LR308 at 200 yards with a 24x optic.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Get a rear bag in there and see what happens. Unfortunately most of our rifles will shoot better than any of us ever will . I have thrown many a target away knowing the data from it is useless. I have never worried about being super picky with my AR15 either though. It is minute of mountain dew bottle at 100 yards with an Eotech, and no bench. I suspect yours has a little left in it too.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

While I don't mess with AR's, I have seen my friends do under 1" at a 100yds. Decent open sights should get you under 3" at 100yds off bags.

I forgot to note in my incremental load comments above that you may want to try seating the bullets to the throat and set back. Depends on the rifle. Most seem to do better set to the throat.

If you don't go to the effort of determining that the powder has a sweet spot and loading to it then all your loads must be perfect for any consistency. Note also that a given rifle/bullet/powder loaded in the sweet spot may still be not all that great. H335 has always been a disappointment with me. Even loaded to the sweet spot on number of rifles it has never been a subMOA load for me.

 

[Sunray]

"...50 yards..." Too close. Move out to 100. Change powders and maybe the bullet. Your rifle doesn't like either. I'd lose the Eotech 512 until you've found a load too. One MOA is an inch at 100. It covers 2" at 50.
Do this.
Beginning with the starting load given in your manual, load 5 rounds only(A mag load if your rifle holds less than 5). Go up by half a grain of powder, loading 5(mag load) of each keeping them separate until you get to the max load in your manual.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 100 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a bench.
Change targets between strings of 5(mag load) and allow time for the barrel to cool.
When you find the best group, sight in.

 

[jja327]

old45auto - Interesting target. What software do you use to generate it?

 

[jpwilly]

MAG's, I'm sorry your rifle and load don't want to shoot.

Should easily be seeing 1/2" to 1" groups at 50yrds and 1"-2" groups at 100yrds...EoTech or not. Magnified optics help but a repeatable sight picture or placing the center dot of the eotech in the same place every time should net much better groupings than what you've posted. I'm not trying to discourage you but something is wrong. So far everyone here has kindly danced around telling you that.

My buddies Ruger with 512 sight can knock the center out of a 1" bull at 50yrds with 1 full magazine using American Eagle 55gr ammo. My Mosin Nagant's will shoot better at 50yrds surplus ammo bad sights and all.

 

[68wj]

To be honest with all ya'll I think with an unmagnified optic and no lead sled my groups are pretty good. I am certain I am moving the gun a litle between each shot since I cant see the precise point of aim on the target with my Eotech and I am not locking my gun down in a lead sled.

These groups at 50 with the Eotech and .223 out of the AR15 are about as good with my LR308 at 200 yards with a 24x optic.

Not bashing at all, but no they are not. At 50 yds, unless you were pulling your shots, that rifle should be capable of much better. With that 1 moa dot, your shots should be touching. I would either not settle on that load, or focus a little more on marksmanship fundamentals.

Try some of the free targets from targetz.com and use a black center dot. Maybe that will give you some better contrast between the bull and your red dot.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

old45auto - Interesting target. What software do you use to generate it?

A loading database I put together in filemaker pro. It's grown to be pretty comprehensive for rifles, shotguns and handgun ammo.

 

[NCsmitty]

It appears that your rifle does not like that bullet. Try something a bit lighter with any of the powders used and you should be able to achieve 1"-1.5" at 50yds easily, if you do your part.

A single group of each load really doesn't give you enough information. Use a minimum 3, five shot groups to verify a load.



NCsmitty

 

[HowardC]

post deleted, -HowardC

 

[dzelenka]

theshepard,

If I had a 1:8" or faster AR that didn't shoot with 24.0 gr of RL15, I would look for gun trouble rather than load issues. That is one of those "standard" loads that work. Kind of like 42.2 gr IMR 4064 with a 168 Matchking in a .308.

The method of finding a sweet spot described by oldfortyfiveauto (the Audette method or some variation) works. It works better if you extend the range a bit, like to 300 yards. I find if you do it at 100 yards, you can end up with most of the bullets in one group and the sweet spot is harder to determine.

I am going to have to agree that the OP needs to work a bit on his bench technique. It would shock me to have an AR that won't hold 2 MOA with match ammo.

The 1:9" twist usually will stabilize a Hornady 75gr.

Dan

 

[dzelenka]

sorry for the double post.

 

[MrOldLude]

I'd probably stop trying to make a battle rifle into a target rig until I put on a magnified optic. The holosight is tacticool, but does very little to help your groups.

 

[theshephard]

@dzelenka, yep it's a 'known good' and I learned it from the guy that got me into high power. I think Sierra lists the max load for this 77 as 24.1gr.

MAGS, I just do want to circle back and commend the spirit of your original post. I wholeheartedly agree that half the fun of reloading is working out the 'best' load. You probably didn't post with the intent of us analyzing your results in detail so much as joining in on a sharing of the process.

I think a good philosophy for testing any component is like troubleshooting a system - I need to eliminate as many variables as I can to isolate the testing of just a single component at a time so the results aren't compromised. For instance, I have a hard time examining my shooting skills unless I know my ammo and rifle to be 'known good'. Same way I can't condemn or endorse a load if I was overly suspicious of my sight picture or my hold.

Personally for my needs with 223 I don't do the sweet spot method as I'm (very slowly) loading to pretty tight tolerance, but can see the real value of this method applied to other calibers/purposes. For my purposes with 223, I generally will take a four-square target and with three or four test loads shoot five round groups of each load in each separate quadrant. Instead of knocking out a quadrant/load at a time though, I shoot one of each at its respective quadrant (e.g. 23.6 in Q1, 23.8 in Q2, 24.0 in Q3, 23.6 in Q1, 23.8 in Q2, 24.0 in Q3, etc,etc) so similar barrel temperatures are distributed across each load, similar fouling, etc. At least that's a method I was taught and it sounds good. Looks like this for example (first three quads with some plinking for sighting in on the center target):

Ready to take some bashing on this method though, so have at if you want.