Working with Cedar

[hmphargh]

So, after toying with the idea of trying my hand at knife making for a while, I have decided that I want to dip my toe in by purchasing a finished blade and fitting a handle.

I would like to try to use wood from my family's property in the hill country. I am trying to use what I believe is Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana). I took a few pieces of the wood to a shop to have it cut into planks and planed. The man working at the shop said it would probably crack and was not good for small detailed work, but he would do it anyway. Of course, he was right, and it came out with some cracks in it.

I was wondering if anyone had worked with this wood and had to overcome similar obstacles. If I were to use wood glue in the cracks and clamp the wood, would it work, or should I give up on the idea of using this cedar and start drying some oak or mesquite? I think the cedar looks nice with its red heartwood, so I would like to try using it, but if I'm wasting my time, I'd like to know so I can move on to ideas that might work better. Any tips or suggestions are very welcome, thanks in advance for your input.

 

[Cosmoline]

Lamination springs to mind, but I've never tried it.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Hand Carving

Years ago -- like 40 of them -- I hand carved a chess knight from a hunk of cedar, the stuff that grows in the mountains in the southeast corner of Arizona.

It took me a while to figure out that the outer wood was grainy and easily splintered by a careless cut. Careful cuts at least minimally or diagonally across the grain worked fine. The dark heartwood was a lot harder and not at all prone to splitting. Of course, the heartwood cuts were more difficult, as it would shed an X-Acto blade if you didn't pay attention.

I don't know how the stuff responds to power tools.

Some patience and hand tools might give a decent result.

Remember, though, that cedar is not a particularly dense wood, and you'll need to use something to seal it to keep it from staining from the oil in your hands.

 

[zxcvbob]

I think that is actually Juniperus ashei. The wood is harder and denser than cedar; not sure how it carves though.

 

[John_galt]

Please don't be offended with this question. And if you know all the following, I apologize for wasting your time. How did you come about this wood? Did you cut the tree? How did you dry it?

Reason I ask is the wood must be dried properly to make it useable for a project like that. Kiln dried is the quickest and may be the best with this species, since in a kiln the temp and moisture can be controlled precisely. If it is dried to fast it will check in areas where the oils are "pocketed", then it will become ustable and unusable for a project like this. You could air dry it, but that is a tricky and long process. May take you up to a year. Checks are when the wood splits along the grain of the wood, ussually it will look like the growth rings pulled apart. Sometimes you get internal checking where you cant see the checks until you work the wood (quarter sawn white oak is really prone to this). If the wood isn't dried correctly and the moisture content varies within a peice of wood. Then when you start to work it it will release moisture as a new surface is exposed from cutting/carving/planing whatever. The wood will crack and warp as it releases the moisture, ruins your project.

You should be able to make a handle out of this species. It is used a lot for pencils, so making small items from it is not impossible. Once is is properly dried it is pretty stable.

I have salvaged some wood before because I like how the wood had cracked or checked, or I 'll use stock with a know just for the look of it. Don't use wood glue though. Instead use a two part clear epoxy. Then sand of the excess once it cures for a couple days. You should be able to polish it down to where it actually looks good. I sussually sand to 320 or 400 grit. If I am going to put a top coat on it, if not polish the wood and the epoxy all the way to 1200/1500 grit. It can give the peice a really interesting look, just takes some extra steps and patience.

 

[hmphargh]

ArfinGreebly: It is the heartwood that is actually splintering! The outer stuff is staying together reasonably well, but the heartwood is splitting in the middle. It isn't too bad, I had a handful of planks cut and I think I can use what I have, but I'm afraid of further splintering.

zxcvbob: Thanks for that piece of info, the trees are colloquially referred to as red cedar, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. They have very red heartwood and have the same smell as the cedar moth deterrent blocks.

John_galt: I actually took this from the firewood pile. I'm not sure exactly when the wood was harvested, but it was cut at least a year and a half ago and has sat partially covered outdoors since then. As you may know, this summer was very hot for central Texas, and the wood sat out for at least 60 days of temperatures over 100. Obviously I didn't pay too much attention to how it was dried, but do you think that amount of drying is adequate or am I missing an important step? Also, thanks for the suggestion about epoxy, I was considering doing this anyway, but I wasn't sure if it would look good, I think I might try that, especially if I get more splintering.

I've also heard that soaking wood in lacquer for a few days then letting it dry a few more is a semi decent way of at home stabilizing (since I don't have a commercial stabilizing facility), do you think this would help with the cracks and is it advisable even if the wood wasn't splitting? Thanks again for the input, keep it coming.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

I have seen ceder used in Knife handles. A knife maker in TN made a knife using ceder planks from 100 year old cabin. You need it stabilized for a knife handle. You can send it off to have that done. Here is your first step.

http://www.stabilizedwood.com/

 

[hso]

As Jim said, you'll need to stabilize it. You can order some material from Rot Doctor that approaches voodoo.

 

[hmphargh]

Good to know, obviously sending it off to have it stabilized will result in higher quality stabilization, but do home stabilization products produce sufficient results? Since I am just making something for myself I am not expecting anything museum quality.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

If you're in a hurry, no.

Expect to spend months curing it at home.

You'll probably have a nice workable sample next summer if you start now.

Woodworking is not for the impatient, if you want to cure and shape your own.

 

[bikerdoc]

The gentleman from TN got it right.

The only wood I use is oak and maple.
Fig, and apple were failures.
Dont even ask about my attempt to make micarta. It was a sticky disaster

Going to try bone and horn next.

Why, because a well ground blade properly heat treated and tempered deserves nice furniture.

Us knife guys are a strange breed!

Wishing you good luck in your venture.

 

[zxcvbob]

I have a piece of holly sitting in my basement curing. It's about a foot long and a foot in diameter. I've painted the ends with latex paint so it dries slower to prevent checking and splitting. After about a year, it is shrinking away from the bark. Not sure how long I need to wait before I cut it. I'm going to use some of it to make fake ivory pistol grips.

My dad just burned up a holly log about 20 inches in diameter and 10' long. Left over from Hurricane Ike.

 

[John_galt]

I've painted the ends with latex paint so it dries slower to prevent checking and splitting. After about a year, it is shrinking away from the bark. Not sure how long I need to wait before I cut it.


This is a good way to air dry but not sure a basement is the best place. Garage would be better, or better yet out side stickered in a pile, weighted on top and covered.

Ussually a year will do. To know for sure it is ready need a moisture meter, should be down to 6-7% moisture for most woods, harder the spevies generally the lower the moiture content. Painting the ends is what keeps from it from checking. If you take it out of a fire wood pile, it won't be likely to work at all. It doesn't dry evenly enough to be stable. I wouldn't chance it. You put a lot of work into it and have too high a chance to have it ruined. When I buy stock from a suplier who has already dried it, I let it acclimate for at least a month in my shop before I start using it. Like th man said patience with wood working. Makes reloading look like a very speedy proccess.

 

[hmphargh]

John_galt: Thank you for the advice! I'm kind of bummed that I got this far and have to turn back, but at the next firewood harvest, I will pick out a nice piece and paint it as suggested and let it dry. In the mean time I may using epoxy as you suggested and just playing with the wood to see if I can achieve any interesting results.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

hmphargh
Look at knife supply house like Jantz, and Texas Knife supply for knife scale. You can get some pretty cheap scale of good quality. Knife scale is usually a Hard wood with very tight grain. There are hundreds of woods to pick from. Be careful some woods are toxic. Always sand wood with a respirator.

 

[John_galt]

Before you try to dry it you have to rough cut. If you try to dry it as a log your likely to have the same problem. It can be very rough. If you know any one with a band saw they should be able to rough it out for you. Even a chainsaw can work if it roughly same thickness for the length of the board. Cut to rough out about an inch thick, then paint then paint the ends. If you google air drying lumber you should be able to find a bunch of helpful stuff. Also don't just do one piece. Do several, that way if some pieces don't dry well you'll have a better chance of having at least some useable stock. A year is a lot of time to put into a project. Good luck.

One other idea for you. If you want to buy some relatively cheap stock that is already dried and stable. WoodCraft (and I think Woodsmith but you may have to order it by phone) sells turing blanks that would likely be the right size to make a knife handle. You can get grab boxes of assorted size and species in doemstic and exotic woods. Or you can order exactly waht you want. The stuff is very good stock, straight grained and dried very well, extremely stable. It will come with the ends waxed heavily to keep it stable.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Category/1002296/Miscellaneous---Wood.aspx

 

[hmphargh]

Black Toe Knives: I saw the scales at the Kit Knives web site. I actually got some stabilized planks at the shop I went to, the guy who made the cuts of the cedar I took in insisted I take them, but ultimately I'd like to use something from the property.

John galt: Thanks for the suggestion, I probably won't get a chance to do it until spring, but I'll definitely do some more research, maybe I took on a bit too much for just dipping a toe in, but I'll get it eventually.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Take all the fully cured cedar you can and learn to work it with found or bought pieces that aren't the small sample you have from the property. That way you can put your best effort into it.

I still have cedar that fell during Hurricane Ivan back in 04(?) or so. It's nicely dried now.

Learning to work with Cedar can be tough too. It likes to tear if you try to carve down the grain, depending on the particular subspecies.

Hitting the local goodwill and thrift stores can net you odd wood finds for practice woods too. I found a cedars of lebanon plaque that's supposed to be actual lebanese cedar. Cost me 50 cents. You can also find cedar coat hangers and other items that are fully cured and ready to work.

Cedar has its own personality, so don't burn up your home cured stock learning to get along with it.