Writer wants to get it right

[vikingjs]

Thank you, thank you, thank you one and all.

In this case, the technobabble is delivered in an embarrassed schoolgirl rush. That it's technobabble is really the point. I just don't want it to be stupid technobabble.

'Internal Ballistics' I picked up off wikipedia, but that sentence is out of character anyway and is already gone.

SIG's Web site says that in .40 their magazine holds 14 rounds, but the gun on the table is an undefined (so far) 9mm. Kate (I imagine) shoots an x-five because she likes the metal to go where she intends it, but it's not in the dialog anywhere.

Thanks to previous feedback, I'm leaving the trigger alone. I see that the last thing you want to experience is a new trigger pull when **** is going down.

The hitting high reference might be important. My assumption was that the higher-pressure cartridge would cause more muzzle flip and therefore a higher strike. I'd like to clarify that, because it comes back later.

Schmidt is pretty much a 'take the gun and the ammo they hand you' kind of guy. He practices as much as is required, but it's not part of his life. Whatever agency he works for (I've managed to avoid anything specific so far) is not bound by borders within Europe. If I need help pining down what agency that might be, I know where to come.

Once more, thanks.

 

[lamazza]

Sounds like Brad Thor-is that you?

 

[vikingjs]

Sounds like Brad Thor-is that you?

No, My name is Jerry. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that you have read anything by me in the past.

 

[The Scandinavian]

The hitting high reference might be important. My assumption was that the higher-pressure cartridge would cause more muzzle flip and therefore a higher strike. I'd like to clarify that, because it comes back later.

Don't forget that the bullet is likely to be travelling at around 1100 feet per second. I'l leave you to work out how long it stays in the barrel. The point is that at handgun ranges the bullet is going to have hit the target already before the user has noticed any recoil.

More muzzle flip does affect the time needed to re-aquire the sight picture and make follow-up shots.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Muzzle flip will not affect bullet impact, however ammunition of diffeent varieties tend to group uniquely. In a handgun, bullet velocities and taget distances are as such velocity will have very little if any effect on height of grouping. In rifle shooting this is different, since velocity differences can be greater (in fps), as well as typical target distance.

Yes Cor-Bon loads are typically "hotter" than your off the shelf personal protection loads, the difference in velocity at typical shooting distances will the last factor to determine a hit or miss. If its even a factor at all.

 

[LanEvo`]

I have avoided specifying Schmidt's gun; it could be anything a European law enforcement agency might use, whatever provides the best fodder for this conversation.

If we're talking Eastern Europe, the most common sidearm is still the old CZ-75. If we're talking Western Europe, I've seen plenty of CZ-75's, Sig P226's, Glock G17's, and Beretta 92F's. If this takes place in Germany, you might want to consider the H&K P7M8. It's sort of exotic, yet wouldn't be unusual to see in the hands of a police officer.

KATE
I adjusted the double action so the pull on your first shot is more consistent, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the parts were in pretty good shape, but the cartridges you had didn’t give me very consistent results. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun.

When you say "consistent results," I guess the question is: do you mean accuracy or feed reliability? I would word it slightly differently depending on what you're referring to.

KATE
I tried out a few different rounds. I got good results with Federal JHP. Kind of surprising, really, but you should try those. The Cor-Bon +P worked pretty well too and it’s a good stopper but if you switch make sure you practice a lot or you’ll shoot high at first. And, uh, for special occasions...

Would Cor-Bon be found in Europe? My guess would be no. I suspect most European police would be using ball ammo from the likes of Sellier & Bellot or other local manufacturers.

Schmidt looks at the box, nonplussed. Kate sees his reaction and speaks faster, her embarrassment growing.

KATE
The first ones I made the propellant burned a little too fast for a 115 grain bullet so I switched to AA-7 and when I used the PMC case I started getting some good groups. It might be a little more energetic than you’re used to, more like a +P, but... uh...

Schmidt is watching her, bemused. She looks down at her hands

KATE
That’s weird, isn’t it?

I understand that this is supposed to be "techno babble" and not necessarily understood by the reader. So, I think it works overall. FWIW, most "gun nut" types would refer to gunpowder as "powder" (not "propellant")

Thanks once again for your help. In the mind-bogglingly unlikely chance that this goes somewhere, I really want the gun parts to be accurate in a story that has lots of guns in it.

Others have commented on the poor etiquette surrounding adjusting someone's trigger without their knowledge. However, I doubt the casual reader would find this strange. It reads well. I would keep it. To expand on what others have already mentioned, some other ideas might be:

"smoothed up the trigger a bit"
"got rid of some of the creep in the trigger"
"lightened the (trigger) pull a little"
"adjusted the (trigger) reset"
"zeroed the sights for a 6 o'clock hold at 25 meters"
"polished the feedramp"
"performed a basic reliability tune"
"beveled the mag well"

Just some thoughts anyway. Good luck!

 

[Leanwolf]

VIKINGJS, are you writing a novel, or a screenplay??

What you've posted is formatted more like a screenplay than a novel.

If it is to be a screenplay, I suggest you be a bit less "lenient" with your exposition. Very few editors, producers, directors, and actors bother much with long, intricate exposition, and too much makes them begin to lose interest in your writing.

Plus, directors do NOT like writers telling them how to direct a flick, through the writer's exposition.

If you are writing a screenplay, I'll offer a little tip that is axiomatic in selling a screenplay.

1. If it is a cops 'n robbers plot, or action adventure, you ALWAYS give your very best lines to the "star," or your protagonist. The second best lines go to the chief antagonist (bad guy). All the rest of the expository lines go to the non-stars.

2. Most film/teeeveee actors do not like to memorize lines... especially long sentences of dialogue. Make 'em short and sweet, and very succinct.

Novel or screenplay, best of luck with it.

Just a suggestion...

L.W.

 

[SuperNaut]

I'd suggest that she throw the guy a bone. She would probably realize that she is talking over the guys head after the first paragraph and she would clumsily simplify it.

Like:

"I adjusted the action so the pull on your first shot is more consistent, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the parts were in pretty good shape, but the cartridges you had didn’t give me very consistent results. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun..."

"huh?

"Uh, I made it less sloppy and threw away your bullets."

 

[vikingjs]

Thanks once more for your help.

I have a question that I think I already know the answer to, but I don't want to throw the idea away if in fact it does make sense after all.

You folks probably know the taxonomy of an engagement better than I do, but it seems like there would be times when different weapons are called for. for instance, to make a suppressor more effective, subsonic rounds make more sense, but when the fur is flying and noise is no longer an issue but penetration is, higher velocity might be better. Perhaps switching from a 1911 with a suppressor (sounds like a staple gun, I've read) to a P226 or one of its many competitors might make sense. But I'm wondering if switching guns in the heat of battle is such a good idea. I imagine that there might be a short period of adjusting to the new firearm.

Alternately, would anyone ever carry magazines for the same weapon, and switch loads as the tactical situation changes? My first thought was that it would be cool to have someone change magazines and have the sound of the gun change, but I imagine that there might be problems with putting subsonic rounds in a gun designed for supersonic. At a guess I would imagine that the slide might not work properly with a less-energetic round.

Still, I think it would be a cool production detail if she had color-coded magazines labeled 'subsonic' and whatnot, that detail freaks could comment on later.

This is really more to satisfy my own curiosity than out of any hope that it will influence the sound applied to suppressed weapons in post-production, unless the producer buys into the whole 'realism' thing. Ultimately all the non-dialog stuff boils down to what I call 'half-burned cigarettes'. (My brother and I listened to a group of film students discussing how far burned down a cigarette should be in a particular shot. I wanted to intervene to remind them that they were ignoring the story on something irrelevant, my brother (a director) wanted to beat them senseless. In his words, "when you get a good take, that's how long the cigarette is.")

But I digress. Change guns? Change loads in the same gun? My guess is that simplicity is good, and that most people would choose a weapon and a round that is good enough for all phases and stick with it. Still, I'd hate to talk myself out of a nice detail.

 

[TestPilot]

I suggest set the large frame in a realistic manner, then move into more smaller details. Like the specific pistol model, for example, cannot be specified until the country and the agency the Schmidt is working for.

To start, exactly who is Kate? What is her profession and background that makes her capable of tuning a pistol?

There are two way a round can go high influenced by recoil. First is when the shooter fired a shot, and impatiently fired off another round before the gun has returned to aim. Second is when a shooter is not skilled, and does not maintain aim while pulling the trigger, in anticipation of recoil.
First round being higher velocity would not mean the first round being higher. If the higher velocity changes the trajectory, making the path go higher than where the sight indicates, then all shots will be high, unless the shooter adjusts by aiming low.

What is Schmidt's background also plays a role. Is he a detective, or member of some sort of SWAT unit? Some special operation unit does use color coded magazines, but I don't know the exact purpose of the code. However, the color code can be used to distinguish live ammo weapons and practive weapons. It is possible for the color code be used to distinguish different type of ammo, such as FMJ, JHP, or other specialized ammunition such as frangible. However, it is highly unlikely that it will be used to distinguish supersonic and subsonic ammunition. If the weapon is a pistol or a sub-machinegun, it is just easier to unitfy the ammo to subsonic. For a rifle, there would not be a suitable subsonic ammunition, unless the rifle is some sort of specialty weapon. If the operator normally use JHP pistol round, or common rifle round, but carries something like an armor piercing round, just in case, then color coding may be useful. But, that would more than likely mean the characer is in some sort of special operations capacity. U.S. cops are usually told to carry 2 spare magazines, and I can't imagine average Europian cops being told to carry more than that, so they don't really carry that many magazine to a degree that color coding will be needed.

Switching ammunition during battle is rare, because government agents or soldiers are usually issued only one type of ammunition for specific weapons they are given. In rare cases where it is done, it is done because they are forced to, such as when the type of ammunition is ineffective, rather than because of minor preference issue. It does make sense to use subsonic ammunition for suppressed weapons. However, in that case, the ammunition will be unified to subsonic, rather than to carry both super sonic and subsonic ammunition. In 9mm, 147gr subsonic is not proven to be any less effective than 124gr supersonic anyway.

If the shooter has a suppressed 1911, I don't see why the shooter would want to switch a weapon during battle. If the shooter wants to switch to the SIG P226 for capacity, then the shooter should have just got a suppressed P226 with sub sonic ammunition from the start.
Higher velocity does not always mean more penetration. 9mm may have more speed, but has less mass than a 45ACP. So certain caliver may show more penereation in some medium, but less in others. Unless the operator has a very specific barrier to penetrate in mind, usually the minor penetration depth difference between common pistol rounds are not a priority high enough to make an average cop to carry two pistols in defferent calibers.

More plausible list of tunings are already mentioned by HGUNHNTR. But, not all of them would make a noticealble difference for combat purposes. Match barrel may not make much difference, unless the shooter competes in Bull's eye competition; and polished ramp may not make much differnce either if the pistol worked fine before. Different sights and a laser grip addition would be noticeable. However, something that reqiures more skills for tuning, and something a combat shooter may appreciate more, would be trigger smoothening, which is different from lightening. Some triggers don't feel smooth when the shooter pulls it, and smoothening it improves accuracy and feel. And, if done properly, does not have negatice effect on the weapon's use for combat.

What did Kate meant when she said the cartridge did not give consistant results? Was the accuracy not good? Did each cartridge produce significant deviation in velocity? A cartridge does not affect trigger pull, so I don't think she meant the cartridge produced inconsistant trigger pull.

What did Kate meant when she said she had good results with Federal JHP and Corbon? The pistol working well with them, or it being a good "stopper"?
I'm not usre why she was surprised that Federal worked well, but I think "I've even tried some cheap surplus ammo and I'm surprised even that worked well." would be more plausible. If those ammunitions are available to Kate that is.

 

[Geronimo45]

Switching mags... maybe - if the shooter is switching from subsonic to armor-piercing rounds, after finding that he's up against guys in body armor - probably not more than one mag of that would be carried, though - seems like it would be more of an emergency measure than anything else. Using that kind of ammo would suggest SpecOps and/or VIP protection folks (like the Secret Service - a body designated not to protect Madonna and Jay-Z, but to protect the likes of Don Rumsfeld, George Bush, Tony Blair, and other bigwig government types).

SpecOps folk switching mags - maybe for tracer rounds, to direct the fire of the unit to a certain position? Not a likely tactic for a pistol-shooter.

Also - in a shootout, most inner walls (probably a lot of outer walls, too) and doors will not stop a bullet. The bodies of most cars won't stop a bullet - those things are good to hide you from sight, not to protect you from incoming fire.

 

[vikingjs]

Test pilot and Geronimo, thanks for the input. I appreciate you both taking the time to wade through the thread and give your feedback. The switching rounds question was more about someone anticipating that the engagement would go through different phases, each with different requirements. Knowing that ahead of time, might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?

This isn't so much VIP protection as it is VIP elimination, but as such there will be a battle plan that starts with stealth and very quickly escalates to a hell of a lot of noise. The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success.

I have not specified Schmidt's pistol, because I could provide relentless detail but unless it applies to the dialog, the props master can read CZ-75, and after some clarification he will say, "Oh, a gun! Yeah, we've got guns."

I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?

The bit between kate and Schmidt earlier is not related to this combat. Based on your feedback, I will not bother with the potentially sweet but ultimately irrelevant details, and make this a subsonic encounter, although I'll stop short of the tommy gun.

 

[Geronimo45]

"might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?"

He would almost definitely carry a "BUG" = back-up gun, in case his original gun runs out of ammo, is lost, or is rendered inoperable (an extremely bad jam, would probably come from a very bad set of ammunition). BUGs are usually tiny guns - .38 Smith and Wesson snubbies are very popular, some of the tiny semi-auto pistols like the Khar K-9 - SF soldiers usually carry a pistol in addition to their long guns, IIRC - and a lot of cops carry a BUG.
Different loads - like I said before, he might carry armor-piercing loads for his suppressed weapon (not the back-up gun).

A mission going from stealth to really loud? I'd say to go with a rifle in 5.56 NATO - an M4A1 Carbine or a Sig 552 Commando (or similar short, full-auto capable rifle). Why? Well, recoil is very low. The round is not a powerhouse, but it is a rifle round - fully capable of penetrating most body armor. Even in full-auto, the gun is manageable and not hard to keep on target. Your guy can have the thing strapped on his back as he goes in, a suppressed pistol ready to take out the unsuspecting folks. Once he's discovered, a he can stop the threat in his immediate vicinity, holster the pistol, and switch to the rifle.
Military doctrine usually prefers semi-auto fire, not full-auto. The rifle would have some kind of sight on it - a red dot sight, maybe an EOtech holographic sight (for close-quarters work) or a low-power telescopic sight (for longer distances). Depends completely on his mission - if it's clearing a building, the EOtech or red dot sights would be great. If it's in the great outdoors, the telescopic sight might be a better choice.

Ammunition for the rifle? Well, he could have a good hollow-point load, or standard military ball ammo. If he's in the habit of dealing with guys in body armor, military ball would probably be his only ammo. If not, he might carry nothing but hollow-points - or even 'dutch load' his gun with alternating FMJ ball and hollow points - to cover all his bases.

A little back-up gun in addition to the rifle and suppressed full-sized pistol would be a little odd - unless your guy was in the habit of always carrying that little gun with him, on the job or not - and he sees it as a kind of good-luck charm.

 

[logical]

Maybe something like this?

***
KATE
I brought your gun back.

Kate reaches into her bag and pulls out Schmidt’s pistol, drawing back the slide to lock it open exposing the empty chamber. It's a routine that is the accepted way to show another the gun is safely unloaded before handing it to them but the move is lost on Schmitt. She reaches back and produces the magazine and lays it next to the gun.

KATE
I, uh, I tuned it up a bit for you.

Schmidt picks up the gun and looks at it curiously.

KATE
I tuned the trigger some so the double action pull on your first shot is more consistent with the single action follow-up shots, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the other internal parts were in pretty good shape, but the rounds you had didn’t give me very consistent results, a gun like this is very capable of tight groups. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a given load will work with the characteristics of a particular gun. A little trial and error is needed.

SCHMIDT
Huh.

KATE
I tried out a few different rounds. I got good results with a Federal JHP load. Kind of surprising, really, but you should try those. The Cor-Bon +P worked pretty well too and it’s a good stopper but if you switch to it make sure you get to the range and rezero the sights or you’ll shoot high. And, uh, for special occasions...

Kate reaches once more into her shopping bag and produces a box of hand loaded ammunition. Her hand shakes just a bit as she sets them on the table, betraying a shy nervousness.

KATE
I made these for you.

Schmidt looks at the box, nonplussed. Kate sees his reaction and speaks faster, her embarrassment growing.

KATE
The first ones I made the propellant burned a little too fast for a 124 grain bullet so I switched to AA-7 and when I found the best overall length dimension to seat the bullit at I started getting some good groups. It might be a little more energetic than you’re used to, more like a +P, but... uh...

Schmidt is watching her, bemused. She looks down at her hands

KATE
That’s weird, isn’t it?

****

 

[Dr.Rob]

I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?

Apples and oranges. You adjust your sights to where the gun shoots. If you don't have adjustable sights then you hold a bit lower or higher when you switch loads... which is a good reason not to switch loads. You want that pistol to hit the same point every time you pull the trigger, esp. when making precision shots (like you might with a supressor).

He starts stealthy then it gets scary? One 'true story' I read from a well known firearms expert (take that for what it's worth, pretty sure I read it in a book by John Pilaster) about the dangers of carrying a supressed weapon in a Vietnam firefight. He was laying down fire to cover his retreating buddies with a supressed Swedish K... and the bad guys couldn't hear him shooting and were running so far forward as to almost overtake him. His explanation was the noise of the gun wasn't making the bad guys hesitate. So maybe that would be a good reason to ditch a silencer on a pistol when things go wrong. The noise of being fired serves as an additional psychological deterrent to a potential pursuer.

Then again it also lets the bad guys know where you are.

Taking different ammo... switching magazines between sonic and subsonic... probably not worth it. And very likely something (unless it was a real plot point) that ends up on the cutting room floor. I think if you ask anyone who carries a gun for work (there are plenty here that do) doubt you'd find anyone that carried different kinds of ammo for their pistol.

The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success

I suggest, if he knows that he's going into harm's way he carry something bigger than a supressed pistol. UNLESS you want to go the James Bond/Man From Uncle route, in which case when the bullets start flying he pulls a wire stock and 30 round magazine out of his coat to turn the pistol into a submachine gun.

 

[TestPilot]

Test pilot and Geronimo, thanks for the input. I appreciate you both taking the time to wade through the thread and give your feedback. The switching rounds question was more about someone anticipating that the engagement would go through different phases, each with different requirements. Knowing that ahead of time, might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?

If the soldier has the freedom to do so, the soldier might carry different type of weapons that suit the situation. For example, if the operator wants to take out a target from a distance, after a stealth approach, and do the job with very few rounds, a sniper rifle would be used. If the distance is closer, and more shots fired is anticipaced, then a scoped self loading rifle may be more suited. If the distance is even more close, and select fire capacity is needed, plain assault rifle will do. That is because the former, the sniper rifle, is more specialized weapon that can to something an assault rifle cannot. So, in order for an operator to think the additional weight is worth carrying, there needs to be some sort of dispairity that the operator needs to do something a general weapon, such as self loading rifle, assualt rifle, SMG, cannot accomplish in a specific mission.

For example, carrying a 9mm 124gr super sonic and a 147gr sub sonic would not be so plausible, because there is nothing much a 147gr sub sonic cannot do that a 124gr super sonic can, so there is not much of a dispairity.

This isn't so much VIP protection as it is VIP elimination, but as such there will be a battle plan that starts with stealth and very quickly escalates to a hell of a lot of noise. The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success.

Unless,long range precision shooting is involved, my suggeseting would be as follows:
Carry a rifle and a pistol for "general" combat, and add a suppressed weapon in sub sonic pistol caliber for the initial stealth approach.
The rifle: Most service assault rifle will do, such as M16 or its varient , SG550or its variant, AK47, AK74, FNC, G36, etc. My preference will be SIG SG551.
The suppressed weapon: Since this must have a capacity to serve as a primary weapon during the initial battle, it must be a sub machine gun. There are many kind of SMG, but good choice will be limited to suppressed MP5 or M635. MP5SD might be a consideration, but keep in mind that there will be a velocity loss, compared to standard MP5 with a suppressor, becuse the barrel of the MP5SD is shortened to accomodate the integral suppressor. If compactness is a priority, MP5K PDW with a suppressor might do.
Pistol would be just matter of selecting one of the well known reliable service pistols.

I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?

If you are talkig about larger caliber,this may be true, only if the shooter is lacking in skills. However, in that case, what is causing the round to go higher is not the heavy bullet, but the shooter failing to bring the gun back to proper aim point after the muzzle flip.
If you are talking about heavier projectile in the same caliber, there is no significant difference in recoil in most combat calibers. However, in that case, the muzzle velocity may chance, resulting in a different trajectoy. Bullet flies in an arc path, because of gravity, and different muzzle velocity will change that arc. That may result in the round hitting higher or lower depending on the target distance.