Can someone help out a writer who's clueless about guns?

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NaNoWriMo is fun! I'm still working on my second draft from 2010. Fight scenes are interesting, because they are so dynamic. As the writer, you get to decide the terms of the fight: is it going to be fought with rifles, shooting at an adversary hundreds of yards away, or a drag race to the gun when two characters see each other exiting stalls in the restroom? Maybe the suspense is coming from one character trying to get his gun into play while the other character is literally on top of him, and already has the brass knuckles out.

Just like in real life, you're characters aren't going to have too much of a heads up what the fight is going to be, unless it's some kind of pre planned raid. If your MC is doing undercover work, there is always the possibility of a well meaning civilian mistaking her for the bad guy, and accidently assisting the villian.

If you're having a hard time making the scenes longer, I've always been a fan of focusing more on the thought process of the character, and showing the reader exactly what it is that makes Ms Deadly one bad dude. Or you could try to use that to your advantage, and keep hour fight scenes short, and then save the really good long ones for when you want to make an extra special point.

It's really up to you, but it might not be a bad idea to look at the S&T part of the forum, and watch some videos of Force On Force training to get a feel for the mechanics of violence. YouTube videos of 3 gun and USPSA matches might also be a good source of inspiration....
 
As the writer, you get to decide the terms of the fight:
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That reminds me of John W. Campbell's reply to a letter to Analog, recommending Gordon R. Dickinson for the Joint Chiefs of Staff based on his grasp of tactics and strategy both in "Tactics of Mistake."
He said "Remember, the author gets to say what both sides are doing."
 
"A huge majority of the Jews and others whose existence offended the Germans might dispute that. Except they didn't dispute anything, did they?"


Not sure the numbers would represent a significant majority(nor, for that matter, even a significant MINority),but the Nazis' combat experiences in the Warsaw ghetto would seem to make your second statement...well...OPEN to dispute? Additionally, Is suspect there were Jews among the ranks of the Polish, Czech, French, British, Belgian, Dutch and other forces who tried to stop them early on.
 
The Warsaw Ghetto resistance fighters numbered in the hundreds; the population was in the tens of thousands at the time of the major uprising and had started in the hundreds of thousands. How many supported the fighters? Probably a lot. Most just died.

There was a breakout of Polish Jews from death camp Treblinka. Many were killed in the attempt, most were executed.

On the other side, a German correspondent told Jeff Cooper that he tried to organize a takeover of a Siberian POW camp. They would still be in Siberia, but at least they would run the place and get all the food, fuel, and clothing. He figured he could do it with 200 men out of 20,000. He got less than 20, from a population of soldiers. So he broke out on his own and walked back to Germany.

Strong resistance to tyranny is hard to find.
 
You could just punt and refer to "pistol", "submachine gun", and "rifle" without getting tied up in models, brands, or calibers.

In contemporary PI, mystery, or crime novels, it's common to just say "gun" when there's no particular reason for more detail.
 
In contemporary PI, mystery, or crime novels, it's common to just say "gun" when there's no particular reason for more detail.
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Exactly. Then you don't trip over yourself by describing some facet of manipulation or capacity or functionality that doesn't apply to the gun you took time to name and describe.


And, of course, you can keep your writing stripped down and minimalist instead of bulking/fluffing it up with technical details that don't add anything to the story.

In other words, good writing means you don't take up time and page space with anything that isn't necessary to the plot of the story, and development of the characters.

Unless you're doing it for comedic effect! :)

All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up! See this? This... is my boomstick!

It's a twelve-gauge, double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt-blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right... shop smart: shop S-Mart... You got that?
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I'm a writer. Six novels published. If your research takes less time than completing the novel, the story will be way off. Know everything about every aspect of the work before you have that final draft. The result of research gives you the authority and ability to pick one concrete detail of an item (gun or whatever) and put it where it belongs. The reader will see the item. What you don't include is at least important as what you do include. With the right detail mentioned, readers fill in the rest.

Not this: He rested the forearm of his scope mounted Remington 700 30-06 on his blue New York Yankees baseball cap.

This: The familiar "click" of the Remington's safety comforted him as he aligned the crosshairs.

If the story can be advanced by a long description of an item (a weapon), do it with an active description. Maybe the character is a sniper and the rifle will play an important role in the novel and a description is necessary.

Not this: His rifle was a bolt action Mossberg. It had a twenty round magazine. The barrel was glass bedded to the 20 inch barrel. The weapon was capable of one inch groups at two hundred yards. The trigger broke cleanly at three pounds. Etc, etc etc.

This: Like a lover, the Mossberg longed to be handled. He caressed the walnut stock. He ran the palm of his hand over the bolt handle, feeling the smoothness. At his shoulder, the weapon begged to be fired. Touching the trigger, the old thrill of knowing the exact pressure needed, warmed his soul. Etc, etc.

Even if it's a complete fantasy weapon, make a list of all it's attributes. You must know it intimately even if you use only a hundredth part of what you know. That way, you'll know what to include. The reader will see what you leave out.

Best of luck with your novel. I'd be interested in buying a copy. Maybe we could trade.

Michael
 
Short barrel:

I totally agree with the research thing, but for National Novel Writing Month where the goal is to write a novel(ela) in November, I think it's ok to take some research shortcuts with the rough draft. (Also, if you could shoot me a pm with the titles of what you've got published, I'd love to give them a read)

To the op:
Have you ever shot a gun before? If your trying to the most bang for your buck out of the research, your best bet is probably to just go shooting so you can see what it's really like, how loud it is, and get a better idea for that part of your characters lives.
 
Hey all,
Been a while since I've stopped by here. I've done some research, but so far I've been getting by in my draft by just saying things like, "she learned to use the hand gun issued by the organization" and later in action sequences simply just saying she fired the gun. I haven't quite had the need to explain, but I would like to at least know exactly what kind of gun she's using and all that. Since I've written scenes one day and deleted the, the next, I'm going to worry about the gun details last. But I do want to be smarter about it in time.

So not surprisingly a heck of a lot has changed since I started the novel in November. All good stuff, but now I have a really weird question for you all.

I have added to the main story line an "experimental drug" that was created to make characters physically superior. No, I don't have all the scientific details. Thinking about incorporating that makes my head spin even more than the gun details...and I'll admit it's hard as the writer to confess ignorance to a forum of strangers! Anyway, what I really want is to make the drug alter a person's reaction time or whatever, so that they can dodge bullets.

Now, I know this is basically physically impossible, but movies totally do it all the time. Not sure of any specific books, but I'd bet money there are at least a few books out there that have done it. Superhero characters are capable of doing it as well. I guess what I'm asking is for you all to give me some advice on how I can go about explaining this with a scrap of credibility. What about the body would need to be altered? What TV shows/movies/books have you found that described this successfully?
And please don't tell me it's impossible. I've read scifi that has way more bizarre stuff going on.
 
IMO, most credible way to explain the ability to dodge bullets would be to give the character extremely good eyesight and very fast reflexes. Then he could see the person's finger moving to pull the trigger and could begin dodging before the shot was actually fired.

That would work reasonably well with handguns. Rifles would be harder to deal with.

As far as your gun details, pick some guns that make sense for your application. Then download the manuals for those guns--most manufacturers offer them as free downloads. Read the manuals and then go to a rental range in your area and rent some guns. Then you can write down your experiences and have a starting framework.
 
^ Okay. I was thinking the same thing, fast reflexes and acute senses especially hearing and eyesight, but wanted a gun expert to clarify for me! I read somewhere that the speed of sound is slower than the speed a bullet can travel at, which sort of throws me off.

I am willing to take any advice that's out there. So if everyone could be as helpful as they were with my original post, that'd be great.
 
Super hearing wouldn't work very well because nearly all rifle bullets and a good percentage of pistol bullets are supersonic and would get to the target before the sound of the shot.

If your character isn't looking at (aware of) the person who's getting ready to shoot him he'd be in trouble because he wouldn't see the shooter preparing to pull the trigger.

I guess you could do something like Trevanian did with one of his characters. He gave him a special sense that detected any time someone was close to him or any time someone was focusing/concentrating on him. The character would generally figure that when that happened he was in danger and would react/duck.

Since you're not worried about reality, you could even make the guy straight out telepathic.
 
I think some kind of "spidey sense" talent would do you well... because as others have said, bullets are normally faster than noise. And someone would have to be lookin at an assailant to dodge one if they had super eyes.
 
Superman just held out his hand and deflected them, or they bounced off his chest without leaving even a tiny lead smudge on his Super-Man long underwear.

Yea!
That's what you need to have!

Bullet-proof long underwear like Superman wore!!!

Even he couldn't dodge a bullet.
He didn't even try.
But his Super-Man cotton Spandex long-johns could stop them!!!

He always bobbed & weaved out of the way when the bad guy ran out of ammo and threw his revolver at him though.

Never could figure that out till I got older.

PS: Nothing on earth can react fast enough to dodge a bullet.
It is not possible, so don't even try!


rc
 
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This sort of thing crops up all the time. I can't understand why someone would want to write about something they know nothing about, then appeal for free advice on the subject, hoping to learn enough to not seem like a complete idjit.

I know nothing about (for example) styling women's hair. So why should I want to write a book with a hair salon as a setting? Same with cooking, or the tribal customs of the Native Americans of New Mexico.

For a story set in the future, you can make up something, like a Model 12 ZapBlaster, and who knows or cares what that is? If you try to use current weapons and names, and get it wrong, you look as foolish as I would writing about hair styles.

Jim
 
JohnKSa and JeeperCreeper: I like the idea of heightened senses, aka making the characters capable of sensing when someone is nearby.

I'm wondering if there's a way for people to be capable of hearing the sound of the gun going off, even though the sound is slower than the bullet's speed. Maybe there's some way to heighten a person's hearing so that he/she could hear the sound sooner or at a farther distance or something.

Really, the drug doesn't even have to grant the ability to dodge bullets. It just has to turn the person into a lethal weapon, so that it'd be extremely difficult for the average police officer/soldier/whatever to be able to hunt him/her down. But dodging bullets seemed like the first logical thought. I have a fantasy manuscript that takes place in a world that doesn't have guns yet, so in that story a magic system that gives humans abilities like strength or endurance gives them an advantage. But in a world with advanced technology like guns, that stuff all is kind of useless because all the opponent has to do is pull the trigger.
 
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You might read Poul Anderson's 'The Sensitive Man' for a thoughtful treatment of somebody with heightened senses. No, he can't dodge a bullet already on the way, but he can sure outmaneuver the shooter.
 
If you are going the "heightened senses" route... Animals can sense a hunter by a variety of methods, sense of smell being one. Perception of movement is another. Just for giggles and grins you can have the stuff do a Jordy Laforge and see into the infrared and ultra-violet range of light where he would "see" the heat of a bad guy's body being blocked out by the weapon he carries.

The twist and turns of dodging bullets is just so ninja and completely overdone. Keep in mind the "superspeed" drug is ancient as well, face it, Henry J. Fate's "elixir" in the Twilight Zone episode of "Mr. Denton On Doomsday" goes back to the late 50's-early 60's. Sterling could get away with it, a modern writer can't.

So- if I were going to outline such a thing- the drug would cause;
increased peripheral vision
Increased recognition of the upper & lower light spectrum.
Increase sensitive of smell (the agents used in firearms cleaning have a unique scent.)
Increased hearing acuity - not just increased volume but wavelength.
and last, increased sensitivity to vibration. Something in the order of being next to a heavily loaded train going at a good rate of speed, you can feel the vibration through the soles of your boots.
 
Yes, I really like the hearing thing. The sensitivity to vibrations I like a lot too.

I agree. The dodging bullets thing is very "ninja", as you put it. To me, it's felt very "comic book superhero" esq which is definitely not the feel I want for this. Yes, it has to be a drug for the purpose of this story.

It's weird, but I've written several drafts without actually knowing what the drug will do (but I also didn't incorporate the drug until a later draft, so there's that). I just don't know what will fit the story best and while it's pretty much impossible to be original anymore since everything's been done, I don't want it to feel trite either.
 
You are writing drafts without an outline???? You are far braver than I. Keep in mind that if you don't define the effects of the drug first the time will come when you "write yourself into a corner" it the ability is fluid you might inflict the reader with a previously unmentioned "skill" rather than to fit into the program.

Just keep in mind, no matter how sensitive his hearing is a quarter mile away the sound is going to take a full second to get there. Sound in air is something like 1130 ft/sec, a 30-06 ball travels at something like 2700 ft/sec. Sound isn't going to help you.

Just for giggles and grins, back when I was being subjected to the legal child abuse called home schooling, my lit teacher suggested taking a common theme and turning it inside out and describing the effects. In that vein... suppose rather than a drug, the hero catches a mutated virus that puts him on death's door then after recovery finds either the virus or the antibodies has given him the new abilities. Perhaps activated a vestigial sequence left in the DNA from the ice age. Then you can then introduce support characters giving long winded explanations that end with "we just don't know." Then the poor sap not only has the challenges of his mission but of adjusting to the effects of the new genetic code. (As in "The Hulk" meets "James Bond.") This way his new abilities are tempered by the struggle between his Cro-Magnon instinctual reactions in competition with modern man's logic patterns.
 
Future > girl has a gun ? can go is hundreds of directions with this .. Family heirloom handed down from whoever could have been old cop from the 70's or Army pistol team member . shooting sports had run in the family kind of thing . thus she grew up with guns marksmanship . hand loading for this whatever you choose .
45 acp gold cup kind of thing revolver for a ex cop Colt Python from his days of competition .
 
Officers'Wife: I do outline! Extensively, in fact. However, this project I did the least amount of outlining due to lack of time. This was a Nanowrimo novel and my choice to compete this year was last minute. The introduction of the drug came during an early stage and became a major plot point, after realizing I didn't have a strong enough plot.

Yes, of course. I know that one of the first scenes that talks about the drug has to introduce the effects of it. I've written out fight sequences where the characters have the "ninja" abilities,so obviously when I clean up the draft those scenes will have to be fixed.

Just keep in mind, no matter how sensitive his hearing is a quarter mile away the sound is going to take a full second to get there. Sound in air is something like 1130 ft/sec, a 30-06 ball travels at something like 2700 ft/sec. Sound isn't going to help you.
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Well, what if the user can hear even farther than that? I get what you're saying and I'm not very well informed on how sound travels, but isn't there a certain distance the user could hear where he/she would be able to hear the bullet before it comes? I'm not even sure that I want to go with the sound thing, though.

As for the mutated virus idea, it would take an awfully long time to go into detail, but it sort of has to be a drug. I am trying to come up with a way that feels fresher. I don't want to obsess too much on the originality angle, because as I've said before pretty much every idea has already been done to death. But I think the best way to go about handling it is not to just fall back on the easiest ideas ("ninja") but to at least come up with something that isn't quite so overdone but also excites me enough to put into the story.

Future > girl has a gun ?
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Sorry, but what does Future > girl has a gun mean?
 
Not going to happen, the ball is going to come to the end of it's flight before the sound reaches him. At best the hero might be able to hear the action working or the sniper shifting the weapon to modify his aim. Even then it would be on the bare edge of believability due to background noise. I can see a scenario where the assassin attempts to sneak up on the guy close enough for a shot with a short barrel and inaccurate handgun but hearing the shot in time to duck? No, the premise could be arrested for vagrancy... there is simply no visible means of support.
 
I've worked target pits at an 800 meter range. The sound will arrive well after the bullet. By the time a bullet has gone transonic it's likely (a) unstable and inaccurate, (b) has already hit the ground or drifted sideways with the breeze.

Has to be a drug? Gene hacking lab's bootleg retroviruses that may cause constant euphoria like the Wireheads in Niven's world. Illegal because often fatal when it doesn't 'take' and the normal issues with blissed out people with no responsibility. In the case of your character it's deliberately administered (like CIA LSD experiments), a rare reaction, heightened awareness of (name your power) and instant muscle snap reaction based on the chemical signal controls left in the DNA from slug predecessors come alive.
It can be a drug and DNA.
 
The use of old tropes combined can make for a interesting, successful dea. It doesn't have to be 'new'. Wen Spencer's Elfhome series combine old fairy tale tropes and now 'old' sci-fi tropes such as stargates and the multiverse to create a new story that still resonates/ has that comfortable old shoe feeling that makes them enjoyable easy reading.
So Known Space / Cyberpunk / Hunger Games themes, if done well would be different enough to interest the reader, but not strange enough to require a lot of thinking.

Blade Runner is now considered a classic, but it was not that successful commercially. A writer looking to gain an audience may be more successful with a new twist on, or combining old tropes rather than something completely different.
 
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