"I need a gun, can you help me?"

[Smurfslayer]

Greetings,

I knew eventually I would have to face this, and need some input. 1st, I've been shooting 15+ years, ex Army, honorable discharge, NRA instructor. I've had students put the question to me "What kind of gun should I get?" and always I try to maintain some balance, not favoring a brand, not favoring a caliber or type. Rather, I prefer to make the person try several with things to consider in mind - how does it fit their hands, how are the ergonomics, what will it be used for, etc... I want people to make up their own minds on what guns they buy, but am always happy to provide input for what should be considered.
Fast forward to last night (or should that be rewind to?)... The wife's friend who 1: doesn't particularly like me, and 2: is fairly irresponsible, and 3: is on heavy prescription painkillers and 4: is not known for keeping the best company had a problem with a midnight visit from someone... For whatever reason(s) she asked the wife for my advice on getting a gun. She's an Anti and doesn't shoot ! Despite me trying to dissuade the wife she wouldn't hear of me not wanting to help as she put it. I expressed my reservations about this woman having a firearm because of her history of associating with people with criminal backgrounds, and irresponsibility, but in the end it _IS_ my wife's friend.
I decided that my wife should best handle the responsibility speech and I looked at her correspondence.

First, I recommended 2 1st class local establishments, one of which offers range time & training. Here's where I began to opine...

She said "Rick's friend who is a cop recommended a glock 14" ... I know, I know... but remember, she's an anti, and a total newbie. I corrected her with my minimal knowledge of glocks - 17 vs. 19, and further opined that while it was perfectly ok, I didn't prefer them. I listed the 2 glocks out with the XD 9, Walther P99, H&K USP as a list to choose from. I added that Revolvers were simpler, easier to maintain, opining that Ruger, Taurus & S&W all made good revolvers; a .357 would be a good choice, being able to also shoot .38's...

She responded being somewhat dismayed by the prices, saying she was expecting around $200 ... I followed up with a Mossberg 500 recommendation - as being far superior to handguns for home defense, and inexpensive, haven't heard any more...

I'm not keen on this woman having a gun There, I said it. She's a drinker (I mean she's got a problem, not one or 2 drinks with dinner), as previously stated, she's been known to hang out with criminals, some felons, and on, and on... Should my wife & I attempt to discourage this woman from getting a gun? Realistically, I don't expect her to change her lifestyle or habits, I did strongly reccomend training at the local range, but she asked my wife for me to help her... I'm conflicted...

Thoughts and opinions ?

 

[JamisJockey]

Should my wife & I attempt to discourage this woman from getting a gun?

No. No person is exempt from the human right of self defense. However, she might be biting off more than she can chew, given her history and associations, and you should tell her that.
I, however, wouldn't put myself out to help her. I absolutely wouldn't train her, except possibly, maybe, in the basics of firearms safety.
I think you're on the right track, directing her to a good firearms instructor other then yourself.

 

[MacPelto]

Well, since you asked - yes, I would try to discourage her, or, failing that, I would try to quietly let the matter go. If neither of these worked, and I wound up in a situation where I was compelled for some reason to help her get a gun for the home, I would recommend a single shot shotgun. Cheap and easy to unload, this being the first thing I would teach her. YMMV

 

[Balog]

Do whatever you legally can to keep a gun out of this woman's hands. People like this are the ones who give the rest of us a bad name.

Some people shouldn't have guns, or kids, or cars, or sharp objects. The .gov shouldn't have to regulate it, we shooters should self-police.

 

[IAJack]

oh boy...

As a long time owner and instructor myself, I would have told my wife NO, I would not help a known / demostrated irresponsible person to own or obtain a gun -not even just advice. How is your wife going to feel when it falls into the wrong hands or something happens involving her and the gun? Used against her cause she refused training, stolen, she is arrested for carrying -whatever. It will then be your fault according to your wife and another statistic against us.

 

[ny32182]

Which is the anti, your wife, or the other woman that wants the gun?

Tell your wife to get some better friends, sheesh... I wouldn't want to have ANYTHING to do with that other woman, especially in regard to firearms..

 

[BryanP]

Beyond putting her in touch with a good training facility I'd have to put my foot down and say "No." You've already done all you have any obligation to do.b

 

[Smurfslayer]

So far, so good... I've seen some expected replies, on both sides.

My wife is not the Anti... although, I have on occaission referred to my wife as "the Anti-Claus" No, her friend is the Anti... And I would like nothing better than to have her tell this person that her life choices are impacting their friendship. They have a long standing friendship which predates our even knowing each other.

I consider this a moral dilemma. This woman - we'll call her Clementine for the purposes of this discussion, has dated a drug dealer who was arrested and ratted out several cohorts , a married local contractor, compulsive gambler, heavy drinker, had roommates who were .... weird (that description coming from me is quite damning, I have a high tolerance for the unusual). There have been people coming and going while we were visiting, friends of her son have been in and out of jail, her son has been in jail for a lot of felonies... Clem brings a lot on herself, and it's never "her fault" it's always someone else's responsibility.

As was pointed out though, irresponsible or not, I don't think that she's somehow not entitled to defend herself. I don't believe that she's involved in anything illegal, but a lot of parties have gotten loud and drunk at her house...

Thanks guys, it's helped to discuss this...

 

[HankB]

Boy, I wouldn't touch this woman, or her desire to get a gun, with a ten foot pole.

Suppose Smurfslayer actually does help her get a gun, and shows her how to use it. She then misuses it, and someone winds up dead or injured. What are the consequences? Maybe something like this:

"So, Mr. Smurfslayer" says the ambulance chasing civil attorney, "You KNEW this person was unbalanced, you KNEW this person was a drunkard, you KNEW this person was using heavy duty prescription drugs, and yet you STILL helped her get a GUN, and TAUGHT HER HOW TO SHOOT PEOPLE?"

(shyster turns to jury)

"Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Smurfslayer showed a wanton disregard for the public safety - I urge you to award the VICTIMS of his drunken, crazy, drug using student a SUBSTANTIAL amount of compensation!"

 

[Smurfslayer]

Hank commented:

"I wouldn't touch this woman, or her desire to get a gun, with a ten foot pole"

[SS] What about a very tall German ?

Yes, the ambulance chaser has crossed my mind. I'd be equally concerned that any gun Clem bought would end up stolen by someone even less responsible and used in a crime...

 

[fawndog]

I have to agree that Ms. Clementine should have been defending herself a long time ago. Defending herself against association with drug dealers, felons and the like, now that her situation is beyond her control she wants a gun. Anti-resposibility is what she is, you don't put a fire out with gas Ms. Clementine, Anti-gun 'cept when you need one.

 

[dairycreek]

You said...............

I consider this a moral dilemma.

I don't necessarily see it that way at all. As you have described it, the choice is between helping an almost totally irresponsible, dissolute, and potentially dangerous person and pleasing your wife. While I am sure that you love and want to please your wife - IMHO this is not the way. As some others have suggested - direct the woman to appropriate help. And, leave it at that. FWIW. Good shooting

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Wow Smurfslayer- I know what you're going through. Mine was my wife's nephew. Substitute 'him' for 'her' in your description, and you'd have him down to a T.

After me giving him almost the exact same advice you gave, he decided that he wanted a H&K USP and started the paperwork. Unfortunately (for him I guess) he had neglected to tell me about a criminal incident in his past and he was denied by the state DOJ.

I think you've reached the limit of your obligation to your wife's friend. I'd be wary of taking it further. Tell your wife's friend to get a dog.

 

[Werewolf]

Smurfslayer,
You must do what you consider is the right thing to do and everything you've written screams out loudly that you believe and that your consience is most emphatically telling you "THAT WOMAN SHOULDN'T HAVE A GUN".

It seems to me that you just want us to validate that opinion.

Well FWIW "THAT WOMAN SHOULDN'T HAVE A GUN".. Tell your wife (who it seems you are tring to appease) that Werewolf said "no, Her friend shouldn't have a gun. If she doesn't kill someone else while in a drug or alcohol induced stupor she'll just end up killing herself and you don't want that on your conscience". For that matter tell her Werewolf says she needs to find a better class of friends because someday that woman's gonna get her in trouble.

Blame it all on me. If it'll help have her log on as Mrs Slayer and I'll tell her personally "THAT WOMAN SHOULDN'T HAVE A GUN".

There see how easy that was...

 

[Balog]

Smurfslayer wrote:

As was pointed out though, irresponsible or not, I don't think that she's somehow not entitled to defend herself. I don't believe that she's involved in anything illegal, but a lot of parties have gotten loud and drunk at her house...

This is like saying "No one should be denied the basic right to reproduce." While I would agree that it is not an area for .gov intervention, you need to realize that you will be putting others lives in danger.

Helping a person such as you described become armed is a lot lot shooting into the air. Even if no one gets hurt, it's still dangerous. Would you help a child molester adopt? Would you help a blind person get a car to drive? Would you get an irresponsible drunk on pain meds get a gun?

 

[JamisJockey]

Werewolf,
REad your own signature for crying out loud. I guess as long as it doesn't infringe on your rights, its okay...but someone else's rights....screw them?



I'm not advocating giving her the gun, I wouldn't want that responsibility. However, by encouraging safe gun ownership, you never know what effect that might have on her.

 

[Balog]

Atc1man: the .gov sterilizing me because it doesn't think I can handle having kids is an infringement. My friends telling me I shouldn't have kids because I can barely keep myself fed and clothed, and because I would most likely neglect/abuse them is NOT. It would be irresponsible for my friends to encourage me to do something that would place myself and others in danger.

 

[Zundfolge]

So will this woman survive an NICS check? If not, then send her to a gun shop where you know the guys and tell them in advance she's coming ... they'll take care of her.

If you think she would survive an NICS check then I'd tell her you won't even discuss what guns she should look at until you take her to the range.

Take her out and make sure you leave the .22 at home ... get your hands on a .44mag or a 10mm or maybe some hot loaded .45 or .357mag and let her shoot it ... Maybe get the shotgun and load it up with 3.5" Magnum slugs (even better, a 10ga) and let her take some abuse from that one too.


by the end of the day she'll have a sore shoulder, sore wrist, brused ego and maybe a little interest in a gun.

 

[Kodiak AK]

Atc1man nailed this one right on .

Like it or not if she wants a gun she will get one .

I am sure there are pleanty of people that think I shouldn't have a gun . There are pleanty of people that think you should not have one either . If she can pass the background check , and gets training why shouldn't she have a gun?

 

[MJRW]

Atc1man/Kodiak,

REad his post for crying out loud. I guess as long as it doesn't with your opinion, its okay...but someone else's opinion....screw them?


He's not advocating supporting a law banning her from owning, that would be infringing on her rights. However, he can still state his opinion as to whether or not she should own one.

Learn the difference.

 

[Smurfslayer]

I'm sure it was obvious that my predisposition was to decline politely. My wife pointed out that she had the sense to ask for help and training, and that as an instructor it would be a bit hypocritical to help others but not this person. She knows my shooting buddies; they come from all walks of life... A loud mouth or two, some ex military, some FFL's, computer folk... Basically, we have a lot of the spectrum covered. Weekly at the range, I see folks who could stand some shooting help, and perhaps once / month, someone who probably ought not to own a gun...
That's why I tried to get her to the local shooting range/gun shop for help. I've followed up with the wife, and her stance has relented a bit, so hopefully tonight she'll see the wisdom of Clem not having a gun just yet... Maybe an alarm system...

 

[gunsmith]

Oh my darling Clementine

Isn't illegal for an alcolholic to even buy a firearm?

I know I've got to say I'm not a drug user or an alky when I buy a gun in CA.

When she shoots your wife in a drunken stupor,or the little kid making to much noise at 11am in the next yard gets shot because my darling clementine has a hangover?

She will be blaming you for years cause you made her her do it

 

[Smurfslayer]

Just to comment, as an instructor, I have a responsibility to see that shooters become better, safer shooters... she _did_ ask for help...

I have a friend who's a clock maker/repairman and a good shooter.
Me: "Frank, do you have the time?"
him: "Dave I'm gonna have to charge you for that."
<awkward silence>
him: "See when you ask for the time from some schmo of the street, who knows what you're getting, but when I give you the time, it's a professional opinion." - said with the straightest face...

Much laughter ensued...

Maybe I should charge an outrageous amount of money based on the risk assessment involved for my advice...

I'd feel much better about this woman being in possession of a firearm were she to make some lifestyle changes for the better. OTOH, I don't want her to be needing a gun at her home, and not have one and something happen...

 

[Kodiak AK]

MJRW I did read it . In fact I read it twice .Now weither or not he will help her that is his choice .Weither or not she can have one is the Feds choice .Weither or not she will have one is her choice .
My choice is to state that Feinstein eliteism does not sit well with me .

 

[Gordon Fink]

I would tell her frankly that I don’t think she is responsible enough to own a gun. Furthermore, I think gunsmith is correct. If she abuses drugs and alcohol, she is already “legally†disqualified from owning a firearm.

However, Smurfslayer, you have another problem. You say this woman associates with criminals and also knows that you own guns. Congratulations! Several criminals now know they can score firearms from you.

I would distance myself from this woman ASAP.

~G. Fink