"I need a gun, can you help me?"

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Personally, I would not help her get a gun.

If she has a long established history of irresponsibility and hanging out with criminals, I would not help her get a gun.

I would wonder, myself, what kind of criminal record she herself might have.

She is bad news waiting to happen.

Sure, she has a right to self-defense.

But, if I were in that situation, I would have the inalienable right to choose whom I would and would not assist.

She would be a big fat NO!

hillbilly
 
If I were you, I would direct her to a good firearms instructor. Don't train her yourself, don't take her to the range, and avoid giving her any advice on anything but finding a good firearms instructor. If she does end up mis-using a gun, you don't want anyone coming back to you claiming you "enabled" her.

She has the right to defend herself, but that also means she has to take responsibility for that right. If she really wants a gun, she needs lots of training, especially if she is going to have to defend herself with it. I would try to get your wife to tell her this as well. Clementine might be more willing to get training if she could find a class that had several other women in it.

One last thought (this coming from the very paranoid part of my brain), considering her past, make sure your firearms are nice and comfy in a very secure place where prying hands can't get to them. Ammo too.

Good Luck!
 
I guess as long as it doesn't infringe on your rights, its okay...but someone else's rights....screw them?
Click to expand...
Rights without any responsibility...sounds like a really good plan. :rolleyes:

Let her decide whether or not she wants to straighten her life out. Then - and only then - should she get so much as near a gun.
 
Atc1Man said:
Werewolf,
REad your own signature for crying out loud. I guess as long as it doesn't infringe on your rights, its okay...but someone else's rights....screw them?



I'm not advocating giving her the gun, I wouldn't want that responsibility. However, by encouraging safe gun ownership, you never know what effect that might have on her.
Click to expand...

Atc - I would never ever consider denying the woman in question the right to purchase a firearm if she so desires. Heck - I believe that a convicted felon, violent or not, should have his rights restored the day he completes his sentence and be permitted to own firearms.

But the question was not whether or not the woman has the right to own a firearm but whether or not she "should" own a firearm. IMHO based on Smurfslayer's description of her she is nothing more than an accident waiting to happen.

I'm sure that you would agree that drugs, alcohol and criminal associates don't mix well with guns. So I asserted (in what I imagined was a humorous manner) that Smurf should dissuade both his wife and her friend from her acquiring a firearm while she's in her present condition.

If she chooses to acquire one anyway - which is definitely her right - and the worse case occurs then she should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
 
Let's think about this folks -- the woman sounds like a b&^%!, so as a law abiding gun owner that doesn't appreciate getting blamed for what idiots like this woman does -- tell her to get pepper spray. I studied martial arts until I owned a gun (and ran out of cash for the martial arts lessons)...

I'm a lady shooter and I don't believe an anti should have a right to own a gun. There should be a third amendment to bar actors, antis and idiots from purchasing them or using them for any reason, including pictures or films. Where is it written she needs a gun for self defense? She's a drinker with a mean streak -- sounds like a bad idea. Encourage her to take that $200 for a martial art school and think about it a year or two. I don't care what you wife says -- tell her you're too law abiding to encourage someone that's this much of a high risk.
 
I would help her. She's likely to wind up with a gun anyway, and desperately needs GOOD training.

There would be a caviat: I'm not going to just show her how to use a gun and walk away. She need to go through training on the law of firearms ownership and the legal reprocussions of using a firearms for self-defense. She has no idea. Many people, once they realize what can happen if the shoot someone in self-defense lose all interesting in owning one.

A demonstration that I find useful for shooters is to have them shoot a gallon milk jug full of water at 6 feet with a hollowpoint. Remind them that the human body is mostly water too, and imagine what would happen is they shoot someone. It's not a neat and pretty action.

This woman needs structure desperately, and he can offer that structure.
 
If you believe her to be unsafe with firearms, tell her so. Tell her what makes you believe that she is unfit to carry. Try to tell her in a constructive, supportive way. She won't learn, and she won't get better if she's not told where she needs improvement.

If she wants your training, and you consider her unsafe, you can refuse to train her. As you said, part of training is teaching people to be safe: if someone won't be safe, they can't pass the training. Make sure you tell her why.

She wants your advice. Inform her of the local laws, and tell her that she should get training before she gets a gun - if she can't hit her target, it won't do her any good, anyhow. Make sure you explain problem 2 to her - if she understands that there are consequences, she may take the first step to getting back on track.


Just my $0.02.
 
I would first of all try to discourage her to owning a firearm. Doesn't seem like she's too stable. But if she constantly insists on a firearm, and for $200 advise her to a P22.

If an anti-gun, crazy nut wanted a gun... I'd sure as hell prefer the person to have a .22 than a shotgun or .357

Maybe even a ruger 22 such as a Single six or a bearcat.
 
I think this trying to discourage her is a bad idea. If she wants to own a firearm, tell her she'll have to find another teacher and list the reasons why. Use your head and follow your heart -- if you think she's a high risk student, don't involve yourself with someone that will likely end up on the six o'clock news. She may anyway but at least you'll have the peace of mind knowing you didn't help or encourage her in any way.
 
Refer her to a store, and that's it. She has the legal right to own a gun, but you also have the right to try and talk her out of it.

There are plenty of people I would tell that they should probably not own guns. For example, anyone who isn't actually going to pull the trigger when the SHTF.

You are not violating her rights in any way by not helping her, or by talking her out of it.
 
I wouldn't even direct her to a gun store if she's known to hang around or associate with criminals. Again, I'd direct her to a martial art school -- maybe they can knock some common sense into her while they're at it....
 
Upon a few minutes' reflection, I do believe I'd tell her that I just wouldn't feel right encouraging her to get a gun. I know what you're thinking. If it makes you feel any better, I have gone through something somewhat similar. When I taught the 8th grade, one of the other basketball coaches knew I was a shooter and asked me for advice on a gun for his home. I was actually pretty excited about that. He's a good man and and an upstanding citizen, no worries there.

But the more we talked about it, the more it became clear that he wasn't willing to use the gun or train with it--but he still wanted it. He told me that he would not be able to live with himself if he killed someone, that he could not pull the trigger under those circumstances. He would either keep the gun unloaded and use it to intimidate an intruder, or shoot them in the legs.

I hated to do it, but I had to tell him that he would be better off with some OC or even a baseball bat if that were the case. To make my point clear, I asked him if he knew where the femoral artery was. He didn't. I told him it was in the leg and that if he opened it, his hypothetical burglar would probably die before the ambulance arrived. Guns, I told him, are lethal force. They are not for bluffing. They are for people either strong enough or desperate enough to take the chance that their attacker will die before their eyes.

Not only did he not buy a gun, but I think he looked at me a little differently from then on. He probably thinks I'm a steely-eyed killer, which of course is the farthest thing from the truth. But better that than to have him hate me the rest of his life because I told him what he wanted to hear.
 
Slightly different tack...

I see the pros and cons of this situation, which is why there are some differing opinions in the thread, and probably why Smurfslayer was asking around for ideas in the first place. If it was easy and clear cut, there'd be no reason to discuss it.

If Clementine was my friend, I would try to help her improve her safety and security... but I would start with FIRST PRIORITIES FIRST.

Living the lifestyle she's living, she's right to be concerned about her safety. Sexual liaisons with married men and drug dealers are both likely to generate unwanted conflicts and potential threats in one's life.

Her drug and alcohol problems aren't helping either. Setting aside the physiologic effects of these substances, she is exposing herself to further danger in a number of ways. Whenever she is in an incapacitated state, she is much more likely to be targeted by predators. Heavy drinking and drug use will likely lead her to associations with unsavory folks. Even staying out late partying means you're out and about during the dark hours when the wild things come out to play.

All these behaviors are much stronger risk factors than being unarmed.

I'd approach the situation from a standpoint of, "I am willing to help you improve your safety and security, but only if you are willing to make ALL the necessary changes."

The current situation is analogous to someone wanting to buy a fire extinguisher, because she likes to splash gasoline all about the house and then play with matches.

Yeah, okay, everyone needs a fire extinguisher... but in this case, the lack of a fire extinguisher (or lack of a gun) is the least of the problems.
 
Kodiak:

"My choice is to state that Feinstein eliteism does not sit well with me."


Befuddling grammar aside...what he is doing is in fact the exact OPPOSITE of Feinstein's methods. He is advocating personal resposibility. It is this kind of mentality that I encourage. To act as though or disavow that the tools we employ for sport or defense do not come with responsibility nor can they be used for ill is blind.

It is not different than asking someone to shut up when they are talking out their a$$ or blabbering at church. But by your method, someone can stand at your dinner table at a restaurant, insulting your date, but heaven forbid you should infringe on their right of free speech by leaving or asking them to stop. Feinstein elitism would ban speaking in restaurants because someone may something mean.
 
When my oldest kid was 2 years old, we spent a lot of time at the local playground. One day, after I'd been pushing him on the swing for well over 20 minutes, I asked him, "Ready to get out of the swing yet?" He clouded up and said no (what a surprise). Well, there wasn't any hurry or anything, so I said, "Okay. You let me know when you're ready to get out of the swing. I'm going to go sit down for a few minutes." He sat there until the swing stopped swinging, and then asked if he could get down and go play.

What's the point of my rambling story? Simply that the desire of one person does not obligate another person to fulfill that desire, and that you don't have to make a big fuss about it one way or the other.

If you don't want to help the lady, don't do it. Despite what others have insinuated (or outright said), you are in no way infringing on her 'rights' if you don't help.

pax

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. -- Mo Sollberger
 
you are in no way infringing on her 'rights' if you don't help.
Click to expand...

I think my point may have been misconstrued (sp).
Simply, she has a right to self defense. Its a basic human right.
Whether Smurf chooses to help her or not is his own right. I won't fault him for or for not helping her. As a matter of fact, I see some liability in him helping her too much. Certainly, I wouldn't want to be the one supplying her with a gun. Supplying her with the knoweledge of how not to shoot her self in the leg while 'cleaning' it may be another matter. :neener:
If she doesn't have enough sense to step up to the plate and take command of her own life, then she deserves whatever fate awaits her.
 
Find a good un-armed self-defense class and send her to it. It can't hurt and may help and may distract her.
 
I've seen a couple suggestions on unarmed defense. Clementine is partially 'disabled' due to a lower back injury, so somehow, I don't see Tae kwon do in her future...

Stun gun, pepper gas, Voodoo hexes sure...

At this point, my hope is that she will see the investment in time and money she's going to have to make and reevaluate. While I don't want to see her become a victim, I won't be attending any parties at her house either...
 
Befuddling grammar aside...what he is doing is in fact the exact OPPOSITE of Feinstein's methods.
I never claimed to be an english major. :eek:
He is advocating personal resposibility. It is this kind of mentality that I encourage. To act as though or disavow that the tools we employ for sport or defense do not come with responsibility nor can they be used for ill is blind.I am all for personal responsabilty.That was why I said she should take the training.We seem to be in the same chapter on this just on different pages .

It is not different than asking someone to shut up when they are talking out their a$$ or blabbering at church. But by your method, someone can stand at your dinner table at a restaurant, insulting your date, but heaven forbid you should infringe on their right of free speech by leaving or asking them to stop.
Now I never said anything like that at all.
Feinstein elitism would ban speaking in restaurants because someone may something mean. Except for her of course.;)
 
Based on what you've said. I agree with Gordon, get away from her. Also, you shouldn't feel conflicted you not wanting to advise her shows your responsibilty. If this woman's life is as unstable as it sounds, she does not need a firearm. Tell her to get a dog, or a louisville slugger.
 
***********EDIT******************


Based on what you've said. I agree with Gordon, get away from her. Also, you shouldn't feel conflicted that your not helping her, to advise her aginst it shows your responsibilty as an instructor. If this woman's life is as unstable as it sounds, she does not need a firearm. Tell her to get a dog, or a louisville slugger.


Good luck,

Jarrod
 
Based on what you've said. I agree with Gordon, get away from her. Also, you shouldn't feel conflicted you not wanting to advise her shows your responsibilty. If this woman's life is as unstable as it sounds, she does not need a firearm. Tell her to get a dog, or a louisville slugger.
 
follow up

Last night TOWMBO and I discussed the situation with Clementine. She agreed with me on all counts. I mentioned that I had sought the sage wisdom of those here, and I as best I could recall, honestly recounted the responses. While TOWMO doesn't shoot as accurately, or as frequently as I'd like, she is a responsible, and safe shooter, and understands that some people just shouldn't : drive, reproduce, ride a motorcycle, use a computer, own a gun - what have you. We mutually agreed that we were both no longer obligated under friendship doctrine to provide further assistance... :cool: And, it appears that I've recouped some of my "Husband Points" to boot...:cool: :cool: :cool:

Fast forward yet again to today(can that be done?). Clementine took my suggestions to the local dealer and range, and reported back to TOWMBO today. The response?

"Thanks but no thanks on the training, it's just too expensive. And the 12 gauge is too big. I just need a handgun and somebody to show me how to shoot, I don't need lessons. All I have to do is point and shoot. Anyone can do that." :scrutiny:

So there you have it...
 
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