You worry about Bears... read this!

[OC-Trainer]

As I mentioned in post 24, I know next to nothing about bears. What does concern me about relying on bear spray, however, is the number of times it's failed to stop an attack. A 60 second internet search yielded these 3 instances. The links are below. I did carry bear spray and a Ruger 454 Casull while hiking with my sons in Montana last June. My takeaway from this is that while bear spray has been effective in stopping some attacks, it's also failed. There is absolutely no way I would be without a gun in the event that the spray didn't work. I understand the attacks happen fast and that you may not have time to use one of them, much less both, but I'm from the it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it school.

A 60 second internet search yielded these 3 instances. My takeaway from this is that while firearms have been effective in stopping some attacks, they have also failed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/30/police-man-continues-driving-after-being-shot-twice-in-head.html

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/21/rambo-of-dzerzhinsky-gets-shot-twice-but-still-keeps-fighting-5897124/

http://articles.philly.com/2012-05-21/news/31789017_1_police-officer-evers-officers

 

[TomJ]

A 60 second internet search yielded these 3 instances. My takeaway from this is that while firearms have been effective in stopping some attacks, they have also failed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/30/police-man-continues-driving-after-being-shot-twice-in-head.html

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/21/rambo-of-dzerzhinsky-gets-shot-twice-but-still-keeps-fighting-5897124/

http://articles.philly.com/2012-05-21/news/31789017_1_police-officer-evers-officers

Exactly. Which is why, as you stated you do in post 67, I carried both. Of course the deterrent that you can carry while hiking that's 100% effective doesn't exist. To be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight. I want whatever tool is going to best protect my kids and myself if we're ever in the unfortunate situation of having to do so. Part of the work I had to do while educating myself prior to our trip was cutting through the biases people brought to the table, whether they were involved in the bear/pepper spray, ammunition or firearms industry. Too many of them exaggerate the effectiveness of their products while downplaying the effectiveness of competing products, even when that competing product had something positive to offer. To that end I bought the best bear spray I could find as well as the handgun and ammunition I thought would be most effective and that I could shoot well and, as it sounds like you do, carried both.

 

[Drail]

It needs to be remembered that the attitude of the bear is a HUGE factor in this equation.

 

[OcelotZ3]

On Thursday before the holiday weekend I was hiking in a California Wilderness Area, walked around a slight bend and came face to face with a bear in the trail, coming my way, ~30' ahead. Then I heard a noise, saw two tiny bears climb trees, and the larger (mama bear) stood up.

I backed up carefully back down the trail and then headed off quite a ways and looped my way around (making noise), assuming the bear kept going down the trail the direction it was heading. I never saw it again.

I did wish I had something in hand at that time...

 

[bassdogs]

Ive seen eye sockets mentioned a number of times in regards to bears. I have to ask why its deemed a viable target other than possibly blinding the bear in that eye.

The concept seems rooted in a mistaken understanding of bear skull construction. The eye sockets are entirely outside the brain box. Nothing at all like human skulls, which seems to be the impression that bear and human skulls are similar.

Ok so I mentioned "in the eye" but you seem to want to overlook the inclusion of "nose or mouth" in the same comment. Both of the latter offer pretty good access to the brain of a bear. The real point of the comment is the unlikelyhood that anyone is going to first get off 6 shots from a revolver into the head of a charging bear. That would be period!!! 2nd if they could, [remember the story was shots in the head] it would be reasonable to think one of them might impact into the nose or mouth. SO eyes are not a good aim point. Got it!! Expecting to get 6 shots at a charging bear is a hard thing to accept!!!

 

[Malamute]

I don't believe the mouth is a good avenue into the brain unless from below, like under the chin. Nose is fairly straight path into the brain if the angle isn't crazy.

I wouldn't necessarily expect any particular number of shots, just to try to do the best I could under whatever circumstances I found myself in. Some discussions seem to assume a lot, such as what the circumstances are, what "average" people can expect to be able to do or not do, and what many assume nobody can do I guess because they know or think they cant. We also are treated to warnings of megabears of 900 lbs, seeming to believe that any bear will be that large, because some in certain locations are. The funniest part is I think few live around bears, work or recreate around them, have hunted them, or even seen any in the wild, yet have ardent opinions on what will happen, what works, and what doesn't.

I talked to a guy once that killed a sow grizzly that mauled him. After blindsiding him in tall sagebrush and chewing him up pretty badly, she rounded up her cubs, then turned back to him with aggressive posturing, popping her jaws and pounding the ground, ears back. He shot 3 rounds at her, hitting her twice with a 41 mag in the body. It dumped her on the spot. He figured shoot 3, save three if the first ones didn't do it. I believe it was at about 20 yards. 210 gr jacketed soft or hollow points, I don't recall. He said they were complete pass throughs.

He spent a lot of time in the hospital, but recovered fairly well from what I saw. Still had scars on his face. Bear bit his face, breaking his jaw, tearing his tongue loose I think, bit his shoulder, his body, breaking several ribs and puncturing his lung, then bit down his back and leg.

 

[HKGuns]

44 Mag with hard cast lead bullets loaded hot with 2400.

Pretty confident it will put down anything I am likely to run into.

I like bear threads, they are always entertaining.

Interesting stories.

 

[BJJ223]

In California, you saw a black bear. They are not overly aggressive with cubs.

The first step is to study bears. Learn about the difference between the behavior of black bears vs. brown bears.

 

[Wild Bill Longley]

22 years ago a black bear appeared 20 yards in front of me in Yosemite. Tried yelling, but it had been fed. Ranger comming the other way started throwing rocks at it. The bear made an escape hole through thorny thicket. I carry three things for all bears: hand held flare, spray on the hip, and a pistol. Flare works for non-charging bears in low fire danger area only. Spray for charging bears. Pistol...well lets hope its not that close. Never run.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[scaatylobo]

IF,this could happen --- then ?

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/201...izzly-bear-9mm-handgun-charges-female-client/

This is a story about a 9MM bear stop.

IF this could,and did happen ---- then I maintain that all those " doubting Thomas's " need to take a step back and allow that there is a reason to carry a pistol and know how AND when to use it.

 

[WYO]

Already mentioned in posts 31, 34 and 47. If you have some time to spare and don't mind reading a long thread, you can look at http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11241792/1/Bear_protection:_9mm,_40_S& and see some of Phil Shoemaker's posts before and after this incident occurred. He posts as 458Win if you want to stick to his posts only.

 

[omerade]

Well ,we deal with Grizzlies frequently and last week we had a young one tip over some grain bins and make a mess in our barn.If a Grizzly is mad and on a mission he will not be easy to deal with and I doubt any shooter with a handgun will do little else but make him very cranky...better off to fumble with a can of pepper spray imo

 

[buck460XVR]

Plain and simply. Bear spray give you the best statistical odds of escaping a bear attack unscathed. This is the opinion of bear attack experts, based on their case studies of actually events.

Yeah, but what do they know as compared to self proclaimed internet Bear attack experts?

Folks hear what they want to hear. Having a big bore snub nosed handgun on one's hip is much more macho that a can of pepper spray any lil' girl could use. Apparently, it's better to die like a man than to live like a lil' girl.

 

[WYO]

Not having a gun in the home statistically raises the chances of not being a homicide or suicide victim, and 9 out of 10 dentists recommend Crest. Let's get rid of guns in the home and non-recommended toothpaste and the USA will be a better place, statistically.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Sorry the data doesn't support your way of thinking. Guess you don't like wearing a seatbelt either, huh? You know, the whole better odds of surviving in the car, and all. Better not read the other odds about personal protection then.

That's the beauty of scientific data, it true whether you believe it or not.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Yeah, but what do they know as compared to self proclaimed internet Bear attack experts?

Folks hear what they want to hear. Having a big bore snub nosed handgun on one's hip is much more macho that a can of pepper spray any lil' girl could use. Apparently, it's better to die like a man than to live like a lil' girl.

You hit the nail right on the head, buck.

 

[Wild Bill Longley]

I think it's time for a competition. Range, wagon, rope, and bear silloutte. Attach the rope to a truck. First test is with a pistol. Points for between the eyes head shots only. Second test is spray. Points for eyes and nose only.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[OC-Trainer]

Already mentioned in posts 31, 34 and 47. If you have some time to spare and don't mind reading a long thread, you can look at http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11241792/1/Bear_protection:_9mm,_40_S& and see some of Phil Shoemaker's posts before and after this incident occurred. He posts as 458Win if you want to stick to his posts only.

458WIN? You mean the guy who posted a pic with bear spray in his hand, while standing face to face with a bear?

 

[MarkIV70]

Alaskan rifle use-bears

Early as well as current homesteaders and guides carry rifles in Alaska.
Many of the rifles used are lever actions, related to John Browning's
original design of the 1886-Model 71. Reason: substantial stopping power.
Lever action rifles work in cold-ice, no fogged scope- and may be loaded while cocked over a loaded round. Of course, there are those who have never heard of a Winchester 86 or M-71-much less a 450 Alaskan.

Many handguns, shotguns and smaller caliber rifles will kill attacking
problem bears. The owners, however-may also be deceased before the bear.

Look up .450 Alaskan-50 Alaskan and 45-90 ballistics.Warm 45-70 loads.


"Make preparations in advance, then if trouble comes...."
Theodore Roosevelt

 

[kayak-man]

My bear country gun is usually a Glock in 10mm, depending on the circumstances either a 20 or 29.

If I ever end up really far out in the boonies or go back to Alaska, it's highly probable my Marlin guide gun in 45-70 will come with me as well.

The thing about bear spray is, I feel like it's easier for a lay person to use than it is a firearm, AND it's a lot easier to get some people to carry bear spray than a gun.

The safety on a can of bear spray is an orange clip you pull off, and instead of having to get a good sight picture with a solid grip and good trigger control, you just spray it, and since you can see the stream of spray, adjust to get it in the face.anyone who has used a garden hose (or my hose monkey brothers in the FD) should be able to use spray where they want.

 

[LeonCarr]

I would like to have an M71 in .450 Alaskan, but from what I understand they never come up for sale, they are passed down to the next generation, and are very seldom seen outside of Alaska. That tells me they work very well for their intended purpose.

To stay on topic, does bear spray typically come in the small fire extinguisher size? I have seen people carrying those in places like Northern Arizona in a nylon belt holster.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[X-Rap]

I carry one of those sized cans on my motorcycle.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Deaf Smith]

Early as well as current homesteaders and guides carry rifles in Alaska.
Many of the rifles used are lever actions, related to John Browning's
original design of the 1886-Model 71. Reason: substantial stopping power.
Lever action rifles work in cold-ice, no fogged scope- and may be loaded while cocked over a loaded round. Of course, there are those who have never heard of a Winchester 86 or M-71-much less a 450 Alaskan.

Many handguns, shotguns and smaller caliber rifles will kill attacking
problem bears. The owners, however-may also be deceased before the bear.

Look up .450 Alaskan-50 Alaskan and 45-90 ballistics.Warm 45-70 loads.


"Make preparations in advance, then if trouble comes...."
Theodore Roosevelt

Actually the firearms used were quite effective over the years.

In TOM S. SMITH's article on effectiveness of firearms (yep I did the research) his database covers 1883–2009. That includes a lot of black powder guns including cap-n-ball (he never showed any data as to what exactly was used or how it was used.)

"Human Dimensions Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska"

As he said: "Success rates** by firearm type were similar with 84% of handgun users (31 of 37) and 76% of long gun users (134 of 176) successfully defending themselves from aggressive bears."

Not bad. No telling how many used low powered guns. And his suggestion was, "Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country." No kidding. I would think being proficient with ANYTHING would be something to recommend.

What is more, he gave a break down of why firearms failed to protect from bears. Ranged from mechanical issues to problems with the 'safety' to lack of time to respond to the bear to tripping and falling!!!, etc. Hmm tripping and falling is a firearms failure?

Interestingly, in his other research on bear spray, Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska, no mention of tripping or falling or problems with the safeties (that pin in the bear spray IS the safety.) Nor did any of them have a 'lack of time to respond to the bear'.

Kind of makes you suspect the research, right?

Still, nearly an average of 80 percent effectiveness with apparently any firearm, is not bad. Which is just what Larry Mudgett said in his article I linked to.

Deaf

 

[scaatylobo]

@ deaf smith

Loved your missive and all the REAL shoots.

I will trust to the gun,and might actually have a can of spray too.

Used gas and gun as LEO, gun wins.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I will trust to the gun,and might actually have a can of spray too.

Used gas and gun as LEO, gun wins.

Well my take is this. Sure bring the spray if it isn't to bulky.

If the bear is just threatening, posturing, etc... then you have time. Use the spray to shoo them away.

But for that sudden rush you don't have time to evaluate and then pick and chose what to use.

Grab the gun.

Deaf