Your thoughts on AR15 varmint brass prep for LC 09 223

[RaiderHawn]

Hi all,

I have a lot of questions, so let me thank you in advance for taking time to read this and share any thoughts, even humorous or tongue in cheek.
I am newer to reloading and have a couple of AR's that I want to explore precision shooting with. I found Natchez had a sale on new LC09 brass for $119/1000 pieces and purchased 5K. My goal is to process it all and get better than black hills "blue box" performance for purposes of P-Dog hunting from 50-500 yds. It would be too costly to shoot once to fire form, plus I am shooting an AR and presume I have to FLS it anyway. I am curious if you have any recommendations regarding the efficiency/efficacy of how I am considering processing the brass.

By way of background:
Guns are Spikes Tactical AR15 with 18" Lothar Walther (Wylde chamber I believe) and a Rock River Predator Pursuit 20" AR15 (not sure on the chamber)
Powder: I have lots of Ramshot TAC and lots of Hornady V-Max 60grn.
Press: Redding T7
Primers: Fed match/gold small rifle
Extras: calipers, dial indicator, K&M neck turning tool, K&M neck expand mandril (new brass necks are too small to fit the pilot on the neck turning tool). Sinclair runout guage. RCBS and Redding Delux FLS dies and Redding precision seating die w/ mic. Primer pocket uniformer and flash hole uniformer tools. Shooting Chrony.

I don't want to ruin a LOT of brass doing this wrong and waste even more time goofing this up, so what do you think of this process:

1. Expand necks on K&M .240 expand mandril and turn necks shaving for concentricity to where neck thickness is .011 to .012. Doing this results typically in 60% ish of the neck touched by the turning tool and neck thickness variance of .005-.002
2. FLS w/ de-capping pin and neck expander ball removed...just squeezing down. I have found that both with Redding & RCBS dies, the runout goes to an average of about .005 for the case, (when you seat the bullet turning it as it is seated the overall bull runout gets worse...seems to add about .002 to the case run-out) if I use a neck expander ball.I have tried floating the neck expander ball, got a carbide one, am lubing with imperial/lanolin/hornady one shot, O-ringing my dies, buying new dies etc, but no matter what I do a loaded "runout" measured at bullet seems to average .005. I hear folks can repeatedly get .001" bullet runnout, but I cant seem to approach that.

sidebar: is there agreement on what "run-out" means? If the needle on the dial indicator swings .006 total, is that a run out of "6" thousandths or "3" thousandths (.003 each way). Just asking 'cause I have seen some recommendations on what match bullet ru-nout should be and that seems to never be clarified. Black Hills Blue Box 223 seems to average about.004-5" run-out if that means total dial indicator needle swing.​

3. size UP the necks with the expand mandril of .223 or .222 (I have both) and the loaded bullet runout seems to be straighter with a mandril about .003-4
4. Primer Pocket Uniform, Primer Flash Hole Uniform
5. Trim to 1.753 +/- .0005 with my wilson case trimmer & chamfer. I survey'd the brass and 1.753 is a length that 95% of LC 09 brass is longer than.
6. Weigh (now that all the cartridges have the "same" geometry) and cull ones that are ___??____ off of mean weight?
7. Ladder test loads with COAL of 2.260 (max length that will fit in my P-Mag magazines)
8. Mass produce "best" load.

Thoughts? Recommendations?

 

[MtnCreek]

You've got alot of cool tools. With 5,000 LC pcs to process, you may want to add a Dillon Super Swage to the list.

 

[RaiderHawn]

Thanks Mountain. Luckily the new LC09 brass are new/never primed, so there is no crimp. I do have 1K PPU brass that all had the military crimp and got a reamer, but it really gave mixed results... But at least for these 5K I am out of the woods. That said, I'm starting to think that maybe buying the new was a bad idea as folks (Redding product support) are telling me that the once-fired brass will likely disappear some of my runout/concentricity issues.

 

[cfullgraf]

Sierra Bullets has a good article on reloading for gas guns. it is in their manual and on the web. i am afraid i don't know the link off hand.

Among other things, they comment to not spend lots of time and effort on extraordinary steps preparing the brass for gas guns as their life is not very long, relatively speaking.

But if it floats your boat...

Run-out, in machine shop terms is the difference from the maximum to minimum reading on the indicator. When I measure bullet run-out, that is the number I record.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Trim to length is generally 1.750 for 223 - why are you choosing 1.753 (or any other arbitrary number)?

Consensus among HP shooters (200/300/600 matches) is that turning the necks is a waste of time ... a decent barrel holds x-ring out to 600 with less refined processing.

For the longer ranges you're thinking of shooting, heavier bullets would aid in fighting the wind ... again, HP generally use 75 - 77gr if restricted to mag length, 80 or 82 if single loading. These would almost certainly require a 1:8 or faster barrel twist.

No comment on TAC other than it's a tad dirtier than many ... RL-15, Varget, 4895, 2460 are common powders, especially for the heavier bullets.

BTW, the RR likely has a Wylde chamber and probably a 1:8 twist.
/Bryan

 

[GLShooter]

For my top AR PD stuff I would merely use the good primers. Forget neck turning, it is a waste of time and energy in a Wilde chambered AR. I use 55 grain or less bullets for PD's and have been going to 50's and 40's exclusively. If your rifle will shoot them I feel you will like the down range Red Mist effect of the lighter bullets. Velocity is king when you are hitting those dogs.

The TAC stuff works well in the AR though I go with AA powders 90% of the time. Don't worry about "dirty" An AR will run hundreds of rounds straight no matter what they shoot. You are a guy that takes pride in your rifle and I doubt if cleaning it after a shoot is much of an issue with you.

That AR will be a shooting machine but in the past 25 years of using them in matches I feel that the most important factor is the bullet choice and a good consistent powder charge. Use of the same type brass is paramount for accuracy but other than that I just don't see the advantage in it.

The wife shoots a full custom 6X45 AR in matches and I worked up a ton of bras with everything but neck turning. It will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA all day long with that brass. I can also get the same groups out of old military LC stuff that only had the crimp removed!! I quit doing all that processing real fast. If I chose one thing to do to the brass it would be to deburr the flash holes. The studies I have read indicates too me that this is the biggest benefit for time spent.

Keep us posted and put some groups up as you shoot 'em.

Greg

 

[Gonzofam]

If you get the Black Hills amo and measure a few against some xm193, and the black box American Eagle. You will see better spec just below maximum measurements in Black Hills and just above minimums in less expensive. I couldent believe how short the shells were cut in less expensive amo and the over all length. I tried to duplicat to my best abilities the amunition that my rifles liked already and I came out on the good side first time. Now if I can improve that from .9 to .3moa like some guys can achieve I might !

 

[P-32]

Rider,

I noticed you have Federal primers on hand. Most AR shooters have found problems with Federal primers. I would strongly suggest using CCI or Remington 7 1/2's.

One time I ran out of Remington 7 1/2's and ended up using Federal match primers in my match tuned AR. I had never pierced a primer before and had 3 of them with the Federal out the 88 fired that day. My load is safe and I've fired thousands of these.

It's been reported slam fires are more likely when using Federal Primers. AR/M-16's have free floating firing pins as did the previous 2 service rifles used by the US. When a round is chambered the firing pin "dimples" the primer. It is normal and no matter what you do it's still going to happen. Federal's cups are softer than CCI or Remington's and again Federal's are more likely to have problems.

 

[RaiderHawn]

Primer perforation

Hi Guys,


Thanks so much for all your replies. By the way P-32 thanks so much for the heads up on the primers; I'm hoping my 4K of purchased SR primers don't perforate at my load - DOH...I am going to load up 100 or so rounds to test that and see if it seems like a problem. For those that have had this happen, is there any conditions on examining the primer in fired brass short of a perforated primer that may signify that the primer is too soft for the load/gun?

I purchased those primers based on a review at midway f(http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=198969) that stated:

"KURT DARROW of LITTLETON, CO Date posted: 10/8/2007I have been using these primers only for the 223. They are consistent in size and performance. The thicker cup design is a must if the round is used in semi-auto rifles having a floating firing pin, such as the AR-15. After 5,000 rds with no miss fires or slam fires the Federal Gold Match 205m has proved safe and reliable if properly installed."



Cup Thickness Diameter Height
CCI 400 . .020" .1753" .109"
CCI 450 . .025" .1750" .113"
CCI BR4 .025" .1755" .109"
Federal 200 .019" .1757" .111"
Federal 205M .0225" .1744" .1075"
Remington 6 ½ .020" .1753" .109"
Remington 7 1/2 .025" .1752" .110"
Winchester SR .021" .1750" .109"

Large Rifle
Cup Thickness Diameter Height
CCI 200 .027" .2112" .118"
CCI 250 .027" .2113" .118"
Federal 210 .027" .2120" .117"
Remington 9 1/2 .027" .2100" .119"
Winchester LR .027" .2114" .121" It can be reasonably inferred that a primer with a thicker cup will resist primer strikes moreso than one with a thinner cup, and will also prove more suitable for higher pressures.



Also, I checked, both guns an they are wylde 1/8 barrels.


Thanks again for your thoughts.