Zimmerman/Martin shooting

[JRH6856]

I don't know that Z was pursuing M (which implies an intent to catch) or just attempting to observe him to see where he was going.

It seems apparent that this was a tragedy of errors. If Martin had gone home and stayed there, there would have been no confrontations. If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck the second time there would have been no shooting. Neither one of them really had any need to go looking for the other but apparently, both did exactly that.

 

[jbrown50]

I can't say it any better than Kleanbore and 9mmepiphany have already stated.


There's something that a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding:

When we go and confront strangers on the street, WE ARE ALSO STRANGERS TO THEM.

This is why you want to step back, regress, and let the police handle these situations, especially the ones in which the person that you're observing isn't actually doing anything illegal. The police have uniforms, badges, credentials and marked cars for a reason. It's so that when they approach the general public, or strangers, they can be easily identified as law enforcement officers with investigative powers.

 

[kgpcr]

Z was an idiot and idiots like him scare me and will do more harm to our 2A rights than we can imagine. If i was walking down the street and someone asked who i am was and where i was going i would tell them to mind thier own business. I am doing nothing against the law or wrong. If he follows me i would assume he dangerous and call the police. If he got out and confronted me I would do what i can to just keep walking until the police got there. If he pressed it i would do what i had to in order to protect myself. If you were followed like that kid was you would be ready defend yourself, all you have to do is read the posts on THR and you will see the scenarios. Z was a Rambo wannabe and now the castle doctrine is under fire from the anti's because he was an idiot.

 

[JRH6856]

^^^^ There is little to no evidence that Z did any of that and if you would look at the available evidence and not rely on the posts on THR you would know that.

 

[hso]

Please provide any objective source of information that Martin sought Zimmerman out? The assumption is that since Zimmerman looses sight of Martin and then their confrontation occurs that Martin sought Zimmerman.

There are 3 possible explanations that are unsupported.

1) Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and Martin somehow after trying to get away from Zimmerman decides to confront him.

2) Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and then found him again intentionally.

3) Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and then they inadvertently came into contact again and the confrontation occurs.

Unless there's more evidence than currently discussed/reported we won't know which are fact.

A lot hangs on which is the actual situation that occurred.

 

[JRH6856]

You are correct. The statements by Martin's girlfriend as to what she heard on the phone, and Martin's father as to what he was told by Sanford PD are probably not objective.

 

[Wapato]

You are correct. The statements by Martin's girlfriend as to what she heard on the phone, and Martin's father as to what he was told by Sanford PD are probably not objective.

True.

Although I note that even in the girlfriends version it's Trayvon who initiates at least the verbal exchange with Zimmerman.

 

[tipoc]

The Sanford Police knew Zimmerman. They took his word as good. Their investigation that evening was cursory and not deep or detailed. They released him that night without charges. They said they had to under the states SYG law.

In the weeks that followed they could not give a satisfactory explanation to Martin's parents or to the public about what had occurred, how or why. The family was forced to launch a fight to get an investigation launched which became a national fight.

An investigation finally began. Charges have been filed, an arrest made and many details not presently in evidence will come forward. Some evidence has come to light in the weeks since Zimmerman's release, the evening of the killing, which do make a difference. More should be expected.

I very much encourage folks to listen to the complete and unedited 911 calls from Zimmerman and the callers from the neighborhood. Listen to them several times. They are much more revealing than the written transcripts.

When Zimmerman says..."These assxxxxx always get away." what does he mean exactly? He believes Martin looks suspicious. OK. But this statement goes beyond that. It implies an assumption about the young man that Zimmerman has no evidence to uphold. He has assigned a role to Martin. Martin has become a zombie and Zimmerman, in his mind, is a zombie hunter. Zimmerman does not want him to get away.

Zimmerman stares at the teenager. In every High School in America this is a challenge. The kid stares right back. The kid walks toward him. You can hear in Zimmermans voice the rising excitement. Then the kid turns and walks away. Disappointment. Zimmerman leaves his vehicle and follows the kid. More of a challenge. A big older guy following you on a dark rainy evening. When given the chance, refused to speak to you and instead stared like a creep. Zimmerman sets something in motion that he ends with an unnecessary killing.

Exactly what happened we don't know. We do know that some witnesses and two independent experts, claim the voice that was screaming for help and ended sharply with the gun shot, was not Zimmerman. SYG does not apply. The Sanford Police dragged that in when they choose not to press forward with an investigation.

The trial will tell us more. Shame it took a fight to get it. But good that the family took up the fight.

tipoc

 

[Loosedhorse]

Not because it is any more prudent than when unarmed…but because a “bad shoot” reflects badly upon all whom carry and might eventually result in lost rights.

Disagree entirely. My LAST concern in a life-or-death fight is how it reflects on other gun owners.

Shooting your opponent is not a "win." It is the second-worse form of losing. Getting out unharmed without having to shoot is winning. And that mindset needs, IMHO, to start as soon as you put on your gun, not after you're attacked.

You mention de-escalation. Avoidance and escape are far better.

Zimmerman had not observed any definitive “criminal” activity.

He had observed enough to make him call the police and get out of his car. To therefore assume that "everything wiil be fine" is at least unwise...and maybe reckless.

It implies an assumption about the young man that Zimmerman has no evidence to uphold. He has assigned a role to Martin. Martin has become a zombie and Zimmerman, in his mind, is a zombie hunter. Zimmerman does not want him to get away.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are over-stating. Thinking that someone is acting like a burglar is different than thinking he must be shot before he eats your brains.

Zimmerman stares at the teenager. In every High School in America this is a challenge. The kid stares right back.

Dramatic. But there's not much basis for this statement.

Zimmerman sets something in motion that he ends with an unnecessary killing.

Sure. But unless he did someting illegal when he "set things in motion," he is not guilty even of manslaughter.

claim the voice that was screaming for help and ended sharply with the gun shot

If I were getting my head pounded, I'd be screaming for help; if I then shot my attacker and he stopped, I'd stop yelling.

The experts said there was a 48% chance that it was Zimmerman; given the bad recording, to my mind that's not a bad match. It is not the same as saying it definitely wasn't Zim, or that it was definitely Martin.

But I've wandered away from tactics.

 

[jon_in_wv]

To some, this seemed apparent from the start as a cause for arrest and continued detention. The arresting officers at the scene routinely cuffed Zimmerman and brought him in. A fairly brief interview resulted in his subsequent release. The get-out-of-jail-card in Florida seems to be pleading self defense, which has happened before.

This makes no sense to me. You prefer that if a person fires a weapon in self defense, and commits no crime, he is arrested and detained in prison until he or someone else can prove it was self defense?? In the Zimmerman case, as well as others, the officer felt there was sufficient evidence the shooting was self defense they couldn't make an arrest as there was no apparent evidence of a crime. Someone being shot is not automatically a crime, its possible the person who committed the crime is the one that got SHOT. After the course of the investigation the prosecuting attorney determine there was probable cause to issue a warrant and they arrested him. This is the was the law works. A shooting is not a special case where you are guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 9mmepiphany: A point to consider:

If I were walking at night and thought I was being followed, I would not lead them back to where I was staying. It is the same advice we give folks who think they are being followed in a car...Don't Go Home.

I don't know if I would conceal myself and wait for them to close the distance, confront them...but they do that on TV all the time...and ask why they were following me. But I guess it would be legal...but, not very bright.

I guess under FL's SYG law, I wouldn't have to retreat if the person following me tried to push pass me either. I could even hit them if I thought they were attacking me by advancing.

My take on this is that the turning point for this string of events was Zimmerman leaving his vehicle. Up until then, there is no confrontation that could have occurred that could not have been avoided...there would have been no face-to-face exchange at all

Very excellent points indeed.

 

[hso]

implies an assumption

This covers most of the discussion here and elsewhere about what happened.

We simply don't have enough information to draw conclusions, unless we're drawing both conclusions of a bad shoot when we fill the gaps with assumptions and a good shoot when we fill them with other assumptions.

If we were to establish 2 or 3 scenarios where we establish "facts" and then debate the outcome we'd probably be in a better position to learn from this incident than debating the incident itself with the gaps in facts that are critical to making a determination of what actually happened.

 

[Sav .250]

To this point in time , Mr Z has been tried every place but a court-room.

 

[aeriedad]

If we were to establish 2 or 3 scenarios where we establish "facts" and then debate the outcome we'd probably be in a better position to learn from this incident than debating the incident itself with the gaps in facts that are critical to making a determination of what actually happened.

That's well-stated and explains why, although I've continued reading the discussion here, I have little interest in further participation. Too little is really known about the precise sequence of events leading to Martin's death, much less what each party was thinking and why they did what they did. I'm not sure there is much more productive discussion to be held on this matter with the facts known presently.

 

[WIKD]

I've tried following this case but it gets frustrating when emotions run rampant and the actual facts are few. Hopefully when the trial begins more factual information will come out and less speculation.
I have been asked a question numerous times by people who like to talk about this case and I'm not really sure if what I believe to be the answer is correct.
If Z was being beat and was in fear of his life why was only one shot fired? They bring up stories of Police Officers and citizens in fear of their life emptying their gun at an assailant. Although I have my belief, would anyone else like to address this so I might give a more informed response the next time I'm asked? I should add that most, but not all, that have asked think Z is guilty of murder and use this as their version of more evidence.

 

[WIKD]

Then there's this (From Mas Ayoob's e-mail feed of 3-24-12):
The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.

Thanks. I did not know the type of weapon or what else had been discovered, ie full magazine.

 

[Loosedhorse]

He questioned a kid that he had no right to.

He had every "right" to question Martin, or anyone else; so do I, so do you. No law is broken in questioning.

Martin had every right not to answer and keep walking. Zimmerman would have no right to detain Martin with threat of force--but that's not what "questioning" is.

I guess under FL's SYG law, I wouldn't have to retreat if the person following me tried to push pass me either. I could even hit them...

And again--as I think you mean to point out--this shows an important distinction: even if something is legal to do (that is, you have a "right" to do it), it may be a tactical disaster.

 

[Kleanbore]

Please refer to Fred Fuller's Post #27 before posting.

 

[Sky]

Unedited portion of the 911 call the night of the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reAC8xMbiLc&feature=player_embedded

 

[Alaska444]

The SYG law does not apply since if the story of Zimmerman is true, Martin attacked him, knocking him to the ground. There was no retreat.

Unless there is substantial new evidence or eyewitnesses, as it stands, the story is Zimmerman went to look for the address on a house to tell the cops where to meet him. On the way back to his car, he claims Martin attacked him and was slamming his head into the concrete.

Two eyewitnesses confirmed his story. His wounds confirm his story.

Once again, unless there is a whole lot of evidence we have not heard, getting murder two out of that scenario is going to be a very difficult task in what is a politically motivated prosecution influenced by the Feds and even President Obama himself.

If Zimmerman was retreating back to his car at the time of the event, guess who is the aggressor in this instance?

I will wait to hear the case which hopefully we are able to hear truthfully. If the court does not allow cameras into the room and broadcast the procedings, I can guarantee you that the news media will not report accurately what goes on during the trial.

This is not a clear cut SD nor is it by any means a clear cut second degree murder case either. It is very unlikely that we will hear Zimmerman testify, thus leaving the prosecution to PROVE that Zimmerman was the aggressor in this instance. Just following, reporting his location and finding an address are not against the law. Whether that was a smart thing to do is another issue altogether, but it is NOT against the law to do those actions.

Unless the prosecution has a witness that saw Zimmerman engage Martin, they are not dealing with a slam dunk prosecution whatsoever. I suspect the first DA understand those facts well even if it didn't answer all the questions. So no, I don't believe we will see heads roll whatsoever.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Someone being shot is not automatically a crime,

When or where did a homicide stop being a crime?

If it weren't a crime, they wouldn't have to investigate it at all

 

[9mmepiphany]

Zimmerman stares at the teenager. In every High School in America this is a challenge. The kid stares right back.

Dramatic. But there's not much basis for this statement.

Is it really?

I think it has been a pretty universal challenge for at least the last 40 years...it certainly is in the animal world

 

[.45Guy]

One more time, we do not know who threatened whom, who felt threatened, or who did what that was unlawful; that will be decided.

So then what is the purpose of this discussion? The only information that is available at present is Z's statements, and the sometimes contradictory releases of info by various news outlets. Frankly, we are all without factual information and this entire discussion is based on conjecture.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by .45Guy: So then what is the purpose of this discussion?

Fred put it very simply in Post #27; we will discuss

what we KNOW - the facts of the case as generally accepted;
- lessons learned so far;
- risks of post incident interpretation/misinterpretation regarding justification;
- the ST&T "school solution" of ADEE;
- legal and social consequences of any shooting, justified or not;
- pitfalls of the sheepdog syndrome.

The only information that is available at present is Z's statements, and the sometimes contradictory releases of info by various news outlets.

We have the original City Manager's press release, recordings of at least one 911 call, the affidavit of probable cause for a charge of second degree murder, some maps and a few other things.

Frankly, we are all without factual information and this entire discussion is based on conjecture.

We have some factual information, and we are lacking key pieces; we will not entertain conjecture except in a general, hypothetical discussion intended to teach us something about what to do and what not to do.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I hope that Justice IS done !