Zimmerman/Martin shooting

[Loosedhorse]

IMO, retreat is always the better tactic when available.

Retreat is available as an alternative to lethal force unless you are attacked with lethal force (or presumed lethal force) with no warning.

In other circumstances, retreat should begin as soon as an interaction turns hostile. I am speaking of safe retreat; an unsafe retreat is only a good tactic if fighting is more dangerous.

JMHTacticalO.

like in a court of law if it is brought up it is fare game

Well, this isn't a court of law. But just like one, when you make an irrelevent or incompetent argument--as you have regarding my state--you lose.

you are speculating that the gun was drawn before the fight started and have no proof of that

Just as you are speculating if you say it wan't drawn before the fight started, since we have no proof of that, either.

 

[JRH6856]

I am speaking of safe retreat; an unsafe retreat is only a good tactic if fighting is more dangerous.

So am I.

 

[barstoolguru]

Until this incident/thread, I did not realize how many people would actually base their tactics of Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine.

a long time we have been taught to be a rabbit (hide and hope danger passes) 9/11 changed that, we see it in our laws. No more do people want to be a crime stat on a political crime sheet so someone can get more funding.

Here is a little fact … there are 6 million people in Dallas /Ft Worth and at any given time there are only 1000 cops on duty (this includes state troopers/meter maids/public safety offices) . That is 1 cop for every 6000 people.

Someone asked “why do you carry a gun in your pocket” and the response “because a cop doesn’t fit”

It’s not that people want to take the law into their own hands it’s just that people are tired of not being able to walk down the street w/o being a victim

 

[Casefull]

You don't carry a gun to be James Bond or Dirty Harry. You carry a gun to protect you and yours while you get on the cell phone and call for help from the police, or the fire department, or the ambulance service, or whatever

I carry a gun because I am the only one cabable of protecting myself/innocents. I could care less about calling the authorities until the need for deadly force was over...if you have that kind of time running away would be a good idea. I do not know what happened in this case or what will be the final verdict for Mr. Zimmerman, what I do know is that he is alive and the other party is not.
I am sure the deceased would gladly trade a prison sentence that Zimmerman may get for his life. Like I told my kids when learning to drive, "the rules and the drivers training are to help you be a better driver but DO NOT HIT ANYTHING is my rule". ie, survival is my goal, and too bad for the other guy. I also will state that if someone was following me I would take that as very threatening.

 

[tipoc]

Trayvon had no drugs or alcohol in his system. The police did not check Zimmerman so we do not know about him.

We do know that Zimmerman told the police dispatcher "These assxxxxx always get away." And seperately referred to Martin as a "Fxxxxxx punk". But he knew nothing about Martin and had never seen him before. This goes to state of mind. Why the hostility? Only Zimmerman can answer.

Zimmerman was not "performing his duties" as a neighborhood watch man at the time. He was on his way to the store when he spotted a 17 year old who he believed was suspicious. So he has said.

We do not know that Martin ran. Zimmerman says he ran. Martin was on the phone to his girl friend at the time and she says she advised him to run but that he said he was walking away fast. According to her Martin saw a man staring at him and that the man followed him. So he wanted to get away.

Tactically this was the right choice.

Martin also made a correct choice in initially approaching Zimmerman when he saw a strange man staring at him. He walked to within hailing distance. The man did not smile and wave or say hello and identify himself, etc. When the man failed to do so and seemed hostile, Martin left. Again the right move. (look at Zimmerman's call to the cops, the accounts of Martin's girlfriend of the call, Zimmerman's fathers account, martin's fathers account of what he says the police told him, etc.) Martin left his vehicle to follow the teenager.

Again on the voice analysts. There are two of them.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...cation-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

The 48% match does not indicate a coin toss. The equipment used has been used for a good many years now. It can tell the difference or similarity in voices whether a voice is whispered, shouted, muffled, etc. A 48% match means there is no match. A simple version of this is sold as an app for smart phones. Variations are used in industry to diagnose machine noise. Again two separate voice analysts used two separate methods and arrived at the same conclusions.

Does it mean that Zimmerman was lying? No. What it means is that reasonable doubt is cast on Zimmerman's story that he alone was calling for help. If Martin was calling for help the shape of things are different from how Zimmerman cast them.

A separate witness also said that it was a young man calling out and not the 28 year old Zimmerman.

Zimmerman was 28, a full grown, physically fit young man who outweighed Martin by over 80 pounds.

Keep in mind that Zimmerman had called the 911 operators 46 times in 18 months to report various emergencies like tenants having left their windows open, cars driving quickly through the complex, loud noises, etc. A good deal more calls than is usual for a neighborhood watch captain. More like a busy body or snitch than a neighborhood watch. The cops knew him well. His family has connections.

The right thing has been done. There is more than enough doubt that Zimmerman's account is accurate. A 17 year old who was doing nothing wrong is dead. There is no reason for me to accept Zimmerman's account as completely accurate. Much less for the Police to have done so without a serious investigation. They did not launch a serious investigation. Martin's family has forced one and that is a good thing.

At this point the matter will go to trial and facts will come forward there.

tipoc

 

[Loosedhorse]

The 48% match does not indicate a coin toss.

Yeah, you're right: that'd be 50%.

Hey, maybe you've got some cards up your sleeve, that tell us that a 48% match is not a 48% chance of it being the same person; that I'm a 48% match compared to most people from India and Japan. If so, show the cards.

Until then, I'll assume it means what it seems to mean. And I'll also assume this:

We cannot usefully compare shouting angrily on the phone with speaking calmly to an interviewer.

So, a police audio of a guy running compared to a 911 call of a (how distant?) guy--maybe with someone sitting on him and with a freshly broken nose--should have gained a better than 90% match?

Okay, if you show us that's true. More here.

 

[JRH6856]

Zimmerman was not "performing his duties" as a neighborhood watch man at the time.

Has it been stated anywhere what his duties were specifically? Did he have set hours of patrol? Or did his duties include being alert and/or on call at all times? Does anyone KNOW?

The 48% match does not indicate a coin toss. The equipment used has been used for a good many years now

In fact, the software used for the analysis has been released for less than 1 month.

A separate witness also said that it was a young man calling out and not the 28 year old Zimmerman.

That would be the witness that refused to look out the window and only reported what she could hear. (as opposed to the witness who was looking at the two men struggling and could see who was yelling and who was not.) As you say Zimmerman is a "young man". And he was a young man with a broken nose. How much would a broken nose affect a voice profile?

There is no reason for me to accept Zimmerman's account as completely accurate. Much less for the Police to have done so without a serious investigation. They did not launch a serious investigation.

According to Tracy Martin, the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter but the State's Attorney declined that charge as he felt he could not get a "slam dunk" conviction with the available evidence and a claim of Self Defense. The case will now go to trial (unless there is a plea bargain) and it is less likely to be a slam dunk on Murder II. And if Zimmerman is acquitted, he may have grounds to claim false arrest and be due compensation by the state for damages and legal fees.

 

[Risky]

Tipoc, Zimmerman didn't call 911 46 times in 18 months. He called the Sanford Police Department 46 times since 2005; that's around 7 times a year. Check your facts.

 

[LeonCarr]

Everything said by the media types who were not at the scene, everything said by the various busybody pot stirrers on TV and the Internet who were not at the scene, everything said by the various alleged subject matter experts who were not at the scene, everything said by the politicians in their hoodies and designer cowboy hats who were not at the scene, is a bunch of baseless horse manure.

The only people that really have a say are the 12 people sitting in the jury box. They will decide what the truth is. Law Enforcement's job is to find the facts leading up to the truth. If professionalism and ethics are maintained (a big if in today's society) we will find out what happened.

Until then, go to the range and do some shooting .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[tipoc]

Tipoc, Zimmerman didn't call 911 46 times in 18 months. He called the Sanford Police Department 46 times since 2005; that's around 7 times a year. Check your facts.

I drew this figure from press accounts. 46 times in 18 months. If you have another please post the link. Also if true when was the last time you called the cops 7 times a year?

In fact, the software used for the analysis has been released for less than 1 month.

The equipment has been available for years. If the specific machine is new post a link explaining this in more detail that we all can see. As I did earlier. The measurement is a straightforward one. Nothing tricky. 48% is not about half a match or 50%. If we are cutting a piece of steel .480" is not 1 inch or close to 1 inch.

You also overlook that two separate voice analysts using two separate methods claimed it was not Zimmerman. Enough room for doubt. It also does not rule out though that more than one person hollered at one point or another.

The point is we don't know what happened anymore than the Sanford P.D. did that night. Charges and an investigation were necessary.

Also the effort to reduce what occurred to what happened once they met up is a cops way of ducking the actual issue of who was responsible for the shooting and who provoked the confrontation. That was Zimmerman without a doubt.

It also ducks the more important issue of why the cops did not investigate.

tipoc

 

[Loosedhorse]

The point is we don't know what happened anymore than the Sanford P.D.

Actually, we know less than the Sanford PD. They had officers on scene, interviewing witnesses and Z immediately after the fact. My guess is a decent LEO gets a pretty good sense of who's lying and who's not. And that sense may be based on impressions that don't jump out from a transcript or on-scene report.

Charges and an investigation were necessary.

Some would say an investigation had already been done. And that charges were only necessary politically.

 

[Risky]

I drew this figure from press accounts. 46 times in 18 months. If you have another please post the link. Also if true when was the last time you called the cops 7 times a year?

Exactly... you can't draw much from the press as its proving to be reliably inaccurate anymore. That's why if you're interested enough in a story to participate in discussion you've got to do your own research into the facts that are available. Otherwise, you're just propagating the skewed perceptions that result from inflammatory reporting and quick to judge media outlets.

Wikipedia is a good place to start. Not because wikipedia is gospel... but the information found on their articles should be cited which is easy enough to click the links at the bottom of the page and read yourself. But, this isn't a lesson on how to use the internet; here's your links:

call logs from Sanforf PD - http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf

As to that being an unusual amount of calls for me to make to police, yes it would be. However, I am not involved in neighborhood watch nor am I a neighborhood watch captain such as Zimmerman.

Using his past calls to police to paint Zimmerman as paranoid or a vigilante is the same as using Martin's past activities and troubles to paint him as a trouble maker or a thug. It has no bearings as to who was right or wrong in the night of the shooting.

 

[JRH6856]

The equipment has been available for years. If the specific machine is new post a link explaining this in more detail that we all can see.

The voice tests were conducted for The Orlando Sentinel

The article says "After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams."

Here is the press release for Easy Voice Biometrics.

FWIW, Owen Forensic Services is the registrant for the Easy Voice Biometrics website

Registrant:

Owen Forensic Services, LLC

Registered through: JasonHunter Design

Domain Name: EASYVOICEBIOMETRICS.COM​

AS for the calls to police, here is a link to a story about that.

 

[tipoc]

Some would say an investigation had already been done.

An investigation of sorts. But clearly not complete.

And that charges were only necessary politically.

It is not the first time that a family has had to fight to get a serious investigation into a shooting to take place. The conviction of Frank Tepper in the killing of William "Billy" Panas Jr. in Philadelphia, the killing of Oscar Grant in Oakland, and a good many more are examples. The family of this teenager is to be congratulated for their efforts to see that some justice is done. All facts brought to light and a conviction, if warranted, obtained. Get all facts out. Let everyone, who can or is willing, learn from them.

Of course it's political. The decision of the P.D. to let Zimmerman walk was political.

It's a matter of the relationship of forces.

tipoc

 

[Loosedhorse]

A compliment...

I sincerely believe that fewer than 1% of the "discussions" cuss:) about this case are being carried on at this level of sophistication, or are doing as good a job of separating fact from fiction (and assumption). And that definitely includes discussions occuring in the highest orbits of punditry.

Congratulations, and thanks.

But back to tactics:

it’s just that people are tired of not being able to walk down the street w/o being a victim

I agree. However, you can just as validly avoid being a victim by escaping your attacker as you can by shooting him. In fact, tactically, escape is better than shooting.

I guess some people feel if they have to run away, safe and intact, they are still victims. Perhaps. But I would argue you are less of a victim that way than if you shoot your attacker.

But I understand mine is not the universal viewpoint.

But clearly not complete.

It is not clear to me at all that it was not complete. Nor that continuing it after things had "gone cold" would turn up more important facts, rather than misleading suggestions (like the "expert" voice analysis opinion, paid for by a newspaper).

The decision of the P.D. to let Zimmerman walk was political.

Because Zimmerman was a VIP to the police? Because the SA "owed him a favor"? Because the NRA had paid off the entire Sanford PD?

It's alright to have an opinion, tipoc, but you should express it in a way that makes some sense. Please.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

According to Miami Herald, police were called to Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times in the 13 months before the shooting of Martin.

While the PDF of 911 calls shows 46 calls by Zimmerman between 2004 and 2006, during Nov 2010 to Feb 2012 Zimmerman made 13 calls.

Zimmerman, neighborhood watch captain appointed by the homeowners' association, made 13 out of 402 police calls from RTL in Nov 2010 thru Feb 2012. That's less than 4% of the calls.

The news media put out the figures that Zimmerman made 46 calls to police out of 400+ calls to police from RTL. Now I find out that the 46 calls covered an 8 year period, but the 400+ calls covered a 13 month period. Too bad we have to do the job the news media should have done before reporting.

Trying to judge voices from the MP3s available is a waste of time, boys and girls. MP3 is known as a "lossy compression" format: it loses detail in favor of small file size, kinda like JPG in images.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The decision of PD to let Zimmerman walk after interrogation was because the interrogation showed no holes in his story of self defense, and the law required that he be free until/unless the 18th district state attorney investigation uncovered probable cause to hold him. The decision to charge and arrest him prematurely was politically motivated.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Any more "choosing up sides" partisanship here and this thread will go on hiatus again until there is a reason to reopen it.

We don't know what we don't know - which is a LOT. Assumption and speculation are not our friends here. Stick to what we know.

 

[JRH6856]

...who was responsible for the shooting and who provoked the confrontation. That was Zimmerman without a doubt.

Oh really?

Fred Fuller posted:

We don't know what we don't know - which is a LOT. Assumption and speculation are not our friends here. Stick to what we know.

We know the exact time that Zimmerman told SPD that Martin started running. (we don't know if he actually ran)

We know the exact time that Zimmerman told SPD "I don't know where this kid is."

We know the approximate location where Martin alledgedly started running and we know the last point where Zimmerman could have seen him before leaving his vehicle.

We know the distance from these locations to the townhome where Martin was staying. (around 130 yards)

We know the average time it would take an average 17yo athlete to cover that distance, running, or walking.

We can thus calculate

We know that Trayvon Martin had plenty of time to get to his temporary residence and safety before Zimmerman completed his call to PD during which time, Zimmerman was reporting he did not know Martin's whereabouts.

We know that Martin was killed about 100 yards away from his temporary residence, and much closer to the place whe was last reported seen (about 35 yards) than he had any need to be.

We do not know why he was there.

We do know that Martin's girlfriend says Trayvon was the one to intiate the verbal exchange with Zimmerman thus possibly provoking the confrontation.

As to whether or not Zimmerman provoked the confrontation, all we can have at this point is uncertainty.

(Fred, if this does not adequately meet the test of what we know (or can know) please delete it.)

 

[Kleanbore]

I am reluctant to put it quite this way in a discussion that has become as emotionally charged at this one, but we all have to keep a few things in mind--things that could become very important. Forget Martin, forget Zimmerman, and consider these things:

1. The evidence available after any shooting may be sparse and must be pieced together after the fact.
2. Even if there were eyewitnesses or ear witnesses or both, their accounts may well be very unreliable indeed (attend MAG20 for an excellent discussion of that subject).
3. The account of at least one of the participants in a use of force encounter will be suspect.
4. If one who has killed another cannot plausibly deny having done the deed, a claim of self defense is likly his or her only recourse; that fact necessarily renders the credibility of his or her account suspect due to its lack of objectivity, whether one wants to believe that or not.

Any of us who is ever so unfortunate as to have to draw and fire (and who is fortunate to do so timely and effectively) may well find these things out the hard way.

I have noticed over the years that when discussions have arisen here about incidents in with one person has shot another with a firearm, some participants have tended, for what ever reason, to identify with the shooter, justifying his or her action and sometimes referring to the other as "the criminal".

In point of fact, however, the shooter, however sympathetic, sometimes turns out to be the criminal--his or her use of deadly force did not meet the requirements of a defense of justification. That could result from indications that a confrontation could have been avoided, or the absence of the accepted elements a disparity of force when the attacker was unarmed.

We need to recognize that and avoid the temptation to identify with one party of the other.

For those who do not yet understand that or have not accepted it, I strongly suggest setting aside the time and resources to attend the classroom portion of Massad Ayoob's MAG20.

In the mean time, those who have not read this will benefit from it.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Gal I worked with at the Press had previous worked in a coroner's office and had taken criminology courses. She described a dull afternoon when the instructor was droning on some boring subject, and someone burst into the class room, did something dramatic, and ran out. The instructor told everyone to stop and write an account of what just happened without comparing notes. There was a different set of acts and different description of the actor for each observor.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Tactics, again.

A lot of us who spend time in ST&T know Rory Miller's writing. The sentence from his first book that most stuck with me was this:

Self defense is about recovery from stupidity or bad luck, from finding yourself in a position you would have given almost anything to prevent.

I believe this statement is true...or should be.

We've all probably run through, in our own minds, what may have happened that night between Z and M, and how "I would have done it better."

Think about your scenario again: have you done "almost anything" to prevent having to resort to self-defense? Are there a few more words or actions--even if they are embarrassing or galling to you--that you might be willing to try in order to avoid having to stop someone by using deadly force?

Miller implies, if we need to to use self-defense, that whatever got us there and cannot be attributed to plain bad luck, should rightly be attributed to our own stupidity. Consider that.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Alan Derschowitz said that even if Zimmerman provoked the argument, in which case SYG does not apply, Zimmerman still has the right in Florida to use deadly force to defend himself if he was punched

IF a punch does did put Zimmerman in fear of his life or grievous bodily harm. If that condition is true, then rajb123states a legal opinion 99% sure to be true, depending on what happened in the few seconds before the confrontation ended. But those seconds are in dispute.

, was on the ground and Treyvon was forcing his head into the sidewalk.

"Forcing"?. I understood it was more like banging his head onto the sidewalk, repeatedly. Whichever it was, and if it was reasonably believed to be a threat of death or grievous bodily harm by George Zimmberman this is a matter of fact yet to be determined by the justice system.

Please don't assume facts not in evidence (as they say on the TV shows).

The Orlando Sentinel reported that there was an eye witness that stated one guy was on top of another guy, beating him up. The witness went to get a phone to call 911 and heard a gunshot, went to the window and then saw that the guy previously on top was now lying on the ground. It wound up that he was the dead one, subsequently identified as Trayvaon Martin.

If the witness is to be believed, then Travon Martin was on top of George Margin in the seconds before the fatal shot was fired.

But what happened before Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman accost, then attack Martin?

Did Martin accost and attack Zimmeran? These are matters of fact yet to be determined.

Please be clear in all posts what assumptions you are making or accepting.

Then let the justice system run its course.

Thanks

Lost Sheep

 

[Shoobee]

In terms of tactics, does anyone (besides me) think that a non-lethal shot would have been more approporate?

Or does it always need to be kill or be killed?

I know LEOs are taught to shoot to kill. I know that. I know why. I have heard all the logical and all the emotional reasons.

But honestly, if me, I would try to take make a shoulder shot, or a leg shot, or even shoot the person in the foot if I can. Especially if I were shooting an unarmed person whom I considered to be a physical threat.

Even a gut shot in the Martin-Zimmerman conflict would have been more survivable than was the chest shot.

The chest contains the heart, and 5 lobes of the lungs. It's a deadly place to put your first bullet.

Any thoughts, in terms of tactics, for putting your first shot someplace else besides the chest?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I know LEOs are taught to shoot to kill. I know that. I know why.

I'm in CA, was a LEO for 28 years in a 1500 member department, heavily involved in training and Officer Survival...and I've never heard of that being taught or even advocated

I'm not sure where you heard/learned that, but I would strongly suggest that there is a creditability problem there.