"Zumbo" revisited - why can't we seem to repeat that epic act of activism?

[Green Lantern]

Bill Ruger is dead, and yes Ruger is under new ownership. However there policy on 20 round mini 14 magazines still stands doesn't it

As far as I know, you are quite correct!

BTW, I'm only 26 and don't think I was even interested in guns when Ruger made his disparaging remark about "civvies" that want "hi-caps." So what, it still sticks in my craw..

 

[jaholder1971]

Sorry, but Zumbo still comes off as someone who would throw all gunowners under the bus as long as he could continue killing forest creatures. For him, RKBA involves his hunting rights and no one elses.

I've seen too many of his type.

 

[Guntalk]

>>Sorry, but Zumbo still comes off as someone who would throw all gunowners under the bus as long as he could continue killing forest creatures. <<

Really? When was the last time you talked with him?

 

[buzz_knox]

>>Sorry, but Zumbo still comes off as someone who would throw all gunowners under the bus as long as he could continue killing forest creatures. <<

Really? When was the last time you talked with him?

When you spoke with him, did you lay out his three different apologies and ask him to explain the rather significant differences between the three? Is the explanation that we didn't understand him, that he didn't understand what the 2nd Amendment was all about, or that he was drunk and tired? He's offered all three and never retracted one of them.

Did you ask if he'd been advised not to blog about the subject, as has been reported elsewhere?

 

[22-rimfire]

Let it go. I don't know why this keeps coming up. I guess people just like to gripe about something.

If the Zumbo thing still bugs you to the point of loosing sleep, I would just not write him in for president come November.

 

[Jeff White]

Buzz,
Unless Tom Gresham has, I would have to say that I'm probably the only person in this thread who has personally spoken to Jim Zumbo about this issue. What was more important to me then his words was his actions. I spent 3 days on the range with him while he learned a totally new type of shooting.

Words mean nothing. I am basing my opinion of him on his actions in that course. Maybe an academy award winning actor could fake the enjoyment he got from dumping a mag from the MK18 on full auto, but the big grin and the exclamation I can't quote here because of the forum rules told me everything I needed to know.

The way I see it, we can either reinforce the bridge that was built between the two shooting communities in April 07 or we can let hard feelings continue to divide us. We have some more battles to fight after Heller. One of the big ones is going to be defining what weapons are in "common use". We are going to need the hunters on our side in this upcoming battle. We can either cross the bridge we built and reach out to them or we can act like spoiled children and cross our arms and hold our breath till we turn blue because they don't see things like we do. The choice is ours. They aren't going to reach across the gap to us, they don't feel threatened, the banners always make a point of pandering to them.

When the battle for defining arms in common use is joined, do we want Jim Zumbo remembering the nurses and physicians and real estate agents and chefs he shot black rifles with in Indiana, and countering the propaganda of the antis, or do we want him indifferent to the issue?

Jeff

 

[buzz_knox]

Maybe an academy award winning actor could fake the enjoyment he got from dumping a mag from the MK18 on full auto, but the big grin and the exclamation I can't quote here because of the forum rules told me everything I needed to know.

Was his grin as big as Charles Schumer's when firing a Tec-9?

I'm not questioning the desire to get him involved, nor am I trying to reopen that battle. I was simply asking whether his statements were ever explained. Mr. Gresham said he talked to him about this matter, and I presumed that was in the context of an interview. I just thought such an interview might have involved presenting the statements.

 

[Thernlund]

Having just breezed over this thread (and having read Jeff's entire post about his interaction with Jim Zumbo)...

Firstly, I think gun owners will rise to the occasion. However, we need an occasion to rise to I think. The kind of effort that went to crucifying Jim Zumbo was out of a perceived immediate need. Activism was required right now. But activism for its own sake just isn't our shtick I think, eh?

As far as Jim Zumbo seeing the light, well, he probably has. I'm not one to hold someone to a screw up they made forever ago so long as they have shown some type of regret and/remorse over it, and done something to make it right.

That said, I think if it came down absolutely having to make a choice, I'm pretty sure he'd sell out "shooters" to save "hunters". I mean come on, the guy is a hunter. I'm sure there are probably some of us who, if put in the corner, would sell out hunting to preserve shooting, eh?

Fortunately, it's mostly only academic. Hunting and shooting are so closely related that it's unlikely that one could be damaged without damaging the other as well, and I think all involved are smart enough to see that. The Zumbo storm was, by Jim Zumbo's own admission, a product of media sensationalism. He may actually feel that way and that's fine. But without pressure from his publisher, I doubt he (or any hunter) would be so stupid as to voice such an opinion.

We're all on the same team kicking for the same goal posts and we all know it, even if we don't completely like it.


-T.

 

[buzz_knox]

Hunting and shooting are so closely related that it's unlikely that one could be damaged without damaging the other as well, and I think all involved are smart enough to see that.

Don't count on it. I've known hunters who were pro-gun control. They supported bills that banned weapons they own.

Too many hunters don't have a clue what the real goal of gun control is.

 

[Thernlund]

Don't count on it. I've known hunters who were pro-gun control. They supported bills that banned weapons they own.

Too many hunters don't have a clue what the real goal of gun control is.

Allow me to rephrase...

"Hunting and shooting are so closely related that it's unlikely that one could be damaged without damaging the other as well, and I think most involved are smart enough to see that."


-T.

 

[Guntalk]

Jeff: I appreciate your insight and your report on shooting with Jim. He has been a friend of mine for about 30 years, so I know him fairly well. Yes, I've talked with him about this -- at length.

There's simply no need to re-open this issue, since there is a small but vocal part of the gun owner population who delights in tearing apart elements of our own, making themselves appear "more pure" or something.

Short version: Jim is not a gun guy. Never pretended to be. Probably owned about four guns. Didn't write about guns. Just a hunter. Spoke from ignorance. ("Ignorance" is not knowing something.") Learned a lesson. Learned about ARs. Began shooting them. Discovered how much fun they are. Got on board. Built a bridge between hunters and shooters. Now serves as a good reminder.

I use his name when I give my talk to outdoor writers (not gun writers) about what the AR-15 is and why they need to know. The message to them is simple. To not know is to be ignorant, and to be ignorant is to look stupid to your readers. Also, it's in their financial interest to know about this stuff. Then we have them shoot. MANY of them come in with the "I don't like *those* kind of rifles" only to leave wanting to know where to buy one. BTW, Jim was at one of those seminars, where he joked that he'd be happy to help me explain about the AR-15. He has a good sense of humor about the whole thing, which is amazing, and it speaks well for the man.

Jeff, you got it right. He's a good guy who screwed up, admitted it, learned from it, and understands that part of his legacy is to serve as a (reluctant) reminder of many things.

 

[buzz_knox]

There's simply no need to re-open this issue, since there is a small but vocal part of the gun owner population who delights in tearing apart elements of our own, making themselves appear "more pure" or something.

Mr. Gresham, I hope you won't count me among that group. As a recovering litigator, words do mean something to me and when a person says a couple of inconsistent things, I want to know if there was an explanation. That was the substance of my question, to find out if he had ever explained the inconsistencies between his explanations of why things happened as they did.

 

[Jeff White]

Was his grin as big as Charles Schumer's when firing a Tec-9?

Buzz,
It was bigger. It was after 2 1/2 days of hard training. Zumbo was 61 years old at the time. You and I were in one of Pat's classes together so I know you know how tired one can be by that stage of the training. The full auto play put new life into him.

As for his explanation, I can only go with what he told me, that was the publisher encouraged him to write controversial things on his blog, he had been hunting all day and was feeling the effects of dinner and three glasses of red wine.

Personally I doubt his comments would have made it past an editor and into Outdoor Life. But given the immediate nature of a blog, there it was, for everyone to see.

Jeff

 

[Dave Workman]

jerkface11 wrote:Zumbo meant what he said. He only ever apologized for saying it he didn't recant it. So he basically offered a Bill Clinton apology he was only sorry he got caught. That isn't good enough.

That's not true. He apologized and also said he was wrong. He said it to me, he said it in a letter and I quoted him.

 

[Dave Workman]

Jeff White wrote:Unless Tom Gresham has, I would have to say that I'm probably the only person in this thread who has personally spoken to Jim Zumbo about this issue. What was more important to me then his words was his actions. I spent 3 days on the range with him while he learned a totally new type of shooting.

No, you're not. I spoke with him a lot, did at least three interviews with him.

 

[Jeff White]

Sorry Dave, I wasn't aware of your interviews. That makes three of us who've personally spoken with the man who have essentially the same impression.

Jeff

 

[Guillermo]

While I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Zumbo, I do of human nature.

His "I was tired" explanation was lame at best and no excuse for calling black rifles "terrorist weapons."

Was that a matter of him playing to an audience or a closely held belief?
I do not know.

Is his regret genuine or is because of loss of business and standing?
I cannot say.

Did he really change his mind or was it a business decision?
Again, I don't know.

Now maybe some of you know him well enough to make these distinctions. Maybe you think that you can see into his soul. I know some believe that they have these powers.

(One fellow claims that he knew Bill Jordon well enough to know that he would like Smith and Wesson's internal lock.)

I am not a mind reader. Just a gun guy looking at the situation from the outside and evaluating the evidence.

As one of the gun community I look at Zumbo as an operative that gave valuable information to the enemy. One who betrayed his people and is now repentant.

I might forgive but I will never forget. And I will never completely trust him.

Especially when I take out my "terrorist weapon."

 

[Guntalk]

>>Was that a matter of him playing to an audience or a closely held belief?<<

It was his belief, as he has said many times. It was what he knew at the time. Now, you can say he SHOULD have known, but we can only know what we know.

Now he owns, shoots and enjoys AR-15s. His beliefs changed as he learned more. This is the way it works for all of us at some time in our lives.

>>Is his regret genuine or is because of loss of business and standing?<<

Since I know Jim pretty well, I know it's genuine, and that he hates getting things wrong. In this case, he was really wrong. In this unusual situation, it hurt him badly to be so poorly informed. He did, however, "cowboy up" and went out and got educated, owned up to his mistakes, and moved on. He now has become quite a promoter of ARs.

>>Now maybe some of you know him well enough to make these distinctions. Maybe you think that you can see into his soul. I know some believe that they have these powers.<<

Usually I ignore such comments, but in this case, I'll address it. When you know someone well, as I do Jim, you have some pretty good insights. I've dined at his home. I've hunted with him several times. I've shared good whiskey with him on many occasions. He's not trying to fool anyone.

>>(One fellow claims that he knew Bill Jordon well enough to know that he would like Smith and Wesson's internal lock.)<

Cute. That was me, but since you have decided to not only misquote me but to misrepresent what I said in a PM, let me just say that you need to read very carefully. I did not say that at all. I knew Bill pretty well. He was a good friend of my father. What I said is that Bill would understand. He understood business decisions. I never said he would like the lock, and to represent it as such is just wrong.

>>Just a gun guy looking at the situation from the outside and evaluating the evidence.<<

Not really. You are ignoring evidence from people in a position to know, and choosing, instead, to maintain the "I'm more pure than others" attitude which only harms the gun rights movement by perpetuating a distrust of our own.

>>As one of the gun community I look at Zumbo as an operative that gave valuable information to the enemy.<<

?? He let them in on the secret that some hunters didn't know much (or anything) about AR-15? Some secret.

>>I might forgive but I will never forget. And I will never completely trust him.<<

That's your choice.

>>Especially when I take out my "terrorist weapon."<<

Then you can join Jim when he's shooting his AR-15. I think you'll find that he doesn't own any terrorist weapons.

The "Zumbo Incident" actually accomplished a lot of good. Many in the gun industry were as clueless as Zumbo about the popularity of black rifles. This thing really shook them up, and they have put their full support behind ARs. They also have expanded their lines, offering us more choices.

Many more shooters -- many of them hunters who had never considered the AR-15 platform -- took up shooting this fun rifle. Now, every maker of ARs is back-ordered for months. These new AR shooters are a potent political force. This is a very good "unintended consequence" of this incident.

All told, I rate the Zumbo Affair as a positive. Jim suffered, and I'm sorry this happened to my friend, but he would be the first to recognize the good which has come from this.

He's a good man who spoke up, screwed up, owned up, manned up, and stood up.

 

[buzz_knox]

It was his belief, as he has said many times. It was what he knew at the time. Now, you can say he SHOULD have known, but we can only know what we know.

If he believed what he wrote and specifically chose the words he did in accordance with that belief (as he asserted to begin with), then why say later that it was the result of being tired and too much wine?

 

[Guillermo]

Tom,

You seem a stand up guy. Very knowledgeable and open with said information. No doubt you are an asset to the gun community. You also strike me as an optimist. I have no doubt that you are a nice guy that I would enjoy meeting, hunting or shooting with or trading stories over a beer.

As you know Mr. Zumbo well, certainly you have more insight than I. It was my objective to stress my “outsiders” view. You are incorrect that I am ignoring you folks that know him well. I do consider your positions and opinions. Were not so many of you coming to his defense I would want him drummed out of the gun community.

One point that I would like to make. You (and others) describe Mr. Zumbo’s “lack of education” as an excuse for his opinion of black rifles. I find that VERY difficult to believe. As one who has been around the shooting community, gun shows, hunting for as long as he has it is inconceivable that he was “uneducated” about the uses of assault styled rifles. He never went to Camp Perry? Never saw one use one to hunt? Never had a chum wax eloquent about his black rifle as they sat around the camp fire? That is HIGHLY unlikely.

In addition, it is a huge leap to go from the misconception that “you can’t hunt with it” to “terrorist rifle.” That is a repugnant statement and in addition to being totally false, what does that say about our law enforcement and military?

BTW, as a point of order I would like to point out that I did not “quote” you. In no way did I identify you, nor would I as that was a private conversation. Honor would not allow me to reveal anything that we said without good reason. You also did not elaborate when you responded to my declarative statement.

 

[Guntalk]

>>If he believed what he wrote and specifically chose the words he did in accordance with that belief (as he asserted to begin with), then why say later that it was the result of being tired and too much wine?<<

Well, if you go to the ORIGINAL statement he made -- it was on my radio show -- I think you'll find that he said he should not have hit the SEND button, and that he did that after several long days afield, dinner, and wine. I could be wrong, but I don't think he ever said the CONTENT was due to tiredness or wine -- only that he should have let the blog sit overnight before sending it.

That's my memory of it. Might not be perfect, but I think it's pretty close.

 

[Millwright]

I've read Zumbo's stuff for years. Like any writer, some's good, some's bad. I've always taken his expressed opinions with a grain ( or several ) of salt because he is, (or claims to be) a humorist.

So what if he put his #12 brogan in the "black gun" cow patty ? Lots of others have done so - particularly early on its evolution - myself included. Its only been in the last decade or less all the nifty engineering and chemistry has come to the fore in creating a lot of nifty - and damn good accurate arms - has emerged using that platform. Its also curious so many ranted about the AR style while similar mods and odds were being done to its peers without much comment..... >MW

 

[Guntalk]

Once again . . . I guess it's just impossible for some folks to admit that not everyone knows everything.

Good grief.

Many, many hunters don't know squat about guns.

Jim has always been in that category.

Gun shows? Why would he go if he doesn't care about guns?

Camp Perry? He's not a competitive shooter, doesn't write about competitive shooting, doesn't write about guns, and doesn't care about competition guns.

You can jump up and down all you want and rail that he should have known this, or he should have know that, but your assumption, and I believe it to be completely in error, is that someone who is a hunter should know a bunch about guns. Many hunters don't. Many hunters don't care about guns. Many hunters could not tell you the difference between a .270 and a .30-06.

To file the point on this a bit finer, once again, Jim is not a gun writer. Many of the assumptions on what he should have known are based on the misunderstanding of what a gun writer is, and what a hunting writer is.

He said he had never seen an AR-15 used by a hunter, and I believe him.

I bet 90 percent of hunters in the U.S. have never seen an AR-15 used for hunting.

You are right -- it wasn't a quote. It was a mischaracterization. I couldn't let the mischaracterization of what I said about Bill Jordan sit there unchallenged. Even if no one else knew who said it, I did, and I also knew that your statement left an inaccurate impression of Bill. This was not acceptable.

 

[Guillermo]

Tom,

You truly seem like a good guy and ready to find the best in people. I am a skeptic. While I have never been to Missouri, I love their motto.

I don't buy that one can spend decades and not understand guns beyond those that he was enthusiastic about. You do. We disagree.

As the learned fellow that you are I do wish that you would speak to this

it is a huge leap to go from the misconception that “you can’t hunt with it” to “terrorist rifle.” That is a repugnant statement and in addition to being totally false, what does that say about our law enforcement and military?

 

[pbearperry]

Does anyone have a good recipe for beaten dead horse?