Arguing About The Rules

I know a lot of people don't care for James Yeager but he once said if everyone would follow Rule 1 there would be no need for the other three and I can't find fault with his statement.

I say it like this "Treat all firearms as loaded at all times"

In my house all guns are always loaded Except when cleaning . No confusion as to if or maybe loaded.

Trunk Monkey said:

I say it like this "Treat all firearms as loaded at all times"

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Same here.

The assumption that they are is good to prevent someone like the Darwin Award winner who shot himself taking a selfie with the gun he found.

We have a rule of no uncased guns in our range meeting room.
This includes guns that are broken down, now I fail to see the danger of a frame & barrel & the other pieces, but that is the rule. All the while I have my carry piece on my side.

Wonder what folks would think if I brought in a cap pistol?

Treat all guns with the respect due a lethal weapon (especially the "unloaded" ones)

Assume loaded when handling and treat all guns with the respect due a lethal weapon.

I have seen a gun dealer clear a chambered round and full tube magazine full of rounds from a rifle brought in by a man who inherited it but was not into shooting sports and wanted to sell it.

The cop who safety checked and cable tied bring-ins at the desk at the gun show cleared a Beretta of a full magazine and chambered round. I hope the guy who brought the gun in sold it and did not take it home. I am sure the people who had those guns believed they were unloaded.

Treat all guns with the respect due a lethal weapon;
plus muzzle awareness: no sweeping unintended targets;
plus finger off trigger until sights are on intended target;
plus identify the target and verify no unintended targets in the line of fire.

MICHAEL T said:

In my house all guns are always loaded Except when cleaning . No confusion as to if or maybe loaded.

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And when it's being cleaned, repaired, or otherwise handled, it's in a completely different area from ammunition (preferably a different room, but sometimes not possible)

folks who dispute this rule like to be difficult or cantankerous. In absolutist terms I know where they are coming from. But being obnoxious isn't helpful where firearm safety is concerned.

When I hear "Every gun is loaded" it says to me (and I teach my children, newbies, and anybody on my range or in my home)

• safety check every gun
• safety check every gun, every time you put it down and pick it up anew
• handle it as if it were loaded until it is safety checked and verified
• continue to handle a safety checked firearm in a safe manner
• don't sweep any body
• muzzle in a safe direction

some of that bullet list gets into the other Four Rules of Safe Gun Safety, but they are all implied in the first rule. Some gunnies don't like to be called on their unsafe behavior. If its my range, they don't shoot. If its my house, they don't handle firearms there, if its their range or their house, I'll leave

There's been a whole mess of people over the course of history shot with unloaded guns.

It pays dividends to treat weapons with the respect due.

Trunk Monkey said:

I know a lot of people don't care for James Yeager but he once said if everyone would follow Rule 1 there would be no need for the other three and I can't find fault with his statement.

I say it like this "Treat all firearms as loaded at all times"

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How would this help with knowing your target and what is beyond it?

I was at a small gun show and spoted a gun I might want. The dealer handed it to me to inspect. As usual, I pull the slide back slightly to see if there is anything in the chamber. YIKES, one in the chamber. I handed it back to the dealer and asked him to unload it. With a shocked look on his face he moved it under his table and ejected the round. I did buy it from him.

Some people just gotta argue the words in spite of the intent.

Generally, those people are also the kind who will argue your initial specific wording on anything, despite numerous attempts to explain what you really meant.

Best you can do is explain the meaning and let them argue stupid stuff with someone else.

How would this help with knowing your target and what is beyond it?

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Would you point a loaded gun at an unidentified target?

There was a member (since banned) that used to troll threads like this asking people if they assumed a disassembled barrel was loaded.

Fast Frank said:

"All guns are always loaded"

It's one of Jeff Cooper's four rules, and it seems to bother some folks.

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Cooper considered himself to be an intellectual, however he recognized that many of the people he dealt with were not, and some were hanging out on the bottom rungs of the intelligence ladder. For those folks he took the rule (treat all guns as loaded until you have verified it is not) and simplified it for their reduced intellect to, ‘all guns are always loaded’.

Remember it in whatever manner keeps you safe.

Some people like fuzzy feel good guidelines that are soft and welcoming.

Guns don't do that well.

And saying it as an absolute - oh, the horror! Can't it be unloaded every now and then? Why so determinedly lethal at all times. Can't we just get along?

Guns don't do that well.

If they are loaded, they can go off if mishandled, and if someone is doing that, they could likely be ignoring other rules of safety, like pointing it as someone who they don't want to destroy.

Their soft fuzzy warm welcoming acceptance that there are no absolutes then is destroyed, too. They don't like it, and they embarrassed, and shown to look like a fool, too.

They just haven't shot someone dead yet. Their soft warmy fuzzy gunhandling is simply precriminal.

If there was a mandatory $10,000 fine for each negligent discharge, tho, do you think they would be so accepting? I suspect then that the Rule would have quite a bit of real meaning - where now all we get is a non lethal surprise for the most part, and rarely an actual injury.

BUT - if you had to fork over 10 G for every single bullet that punched a hole thru the carpet or TV tube - weil, maybe Ruger wouldn't have had to finance a recall on the 1st Gen LCP. There are rarely hundreds of complaints over the release of a new firearm - more like a dozen that precipitate a recall. And the bulk always seem to have a highly conspicuous element of shooter complacency and one certain staple item - a complete lack of experience with that new gun. Hey - IT'S NEW - you can't possibly be familiar with it.

The soft warm fuzzy feeling of being protected by the firearm is then completely shattered (along with their hearing temporarily) as they discover that no matter how much they insist that a gun is safe when unloaded - it's still lethally dangerous and can kill.

I put these people in the same camp as those who say "My dog doesn't bite." As I stand there with a sleeve ripped while they watch.

Don't associate with them as they are nothing more than an accident waiting to inflict their random luck on you. No explanation needed - just don't be around them when they are armed. You don't want to be there patting them on the hand comforting them as the ambulance pulls up too late for the victim, do you?

Better to treat a gun as if it's always loaded and here it go click - than bang when you didn't intend it.

jobu07 said:

There's been a whole mess of people over the course of history shot with unloaded guns.

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I would be willing to bet that you really don't believe this to be true. In fact, I'd be willing to put up $1000 cash that you cannot find even one reliable account of a person, place, or thing that was shot by an unloaded gun.

Find a neutral third party to hold our cash. If you cannot, within one week (seven calendar days) find even one reliable account of an unloaded gun discharging, the cash comes to me. If you can, the cash goes to you. Agree?

Yes, Frank, I read and appreciate your point, but I am going to read all before I respond.

Patience, friend, patience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobu07 View Post
There's been a whole mess of people over the course of history shot with unloaded guns.

I would be willing to bet that you really don't believe this to be true. In fact, I'd be willing to put up $1000 cash that you cannot find even one reliable account of a person, place, or thing that was shot by an unloaded gun.

Find a neutral third party to hold our cash. If you cannot, within one week (seven calendar days) find even one reliable account of an unloaded gun discharging, the cash comes to me. If you can, the cash goes to you. Agree?

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Sorry Mainsail. I guess the sarcasm of that old saying didn't translate well.

What it was means is that there are a lot of people out there assumed that a gun was unloaded. By not respecting rule #1, they went ahead and didn't follow any of the other rules and then, well, people have had accidents.

I'm sure you've read it as many times as me in the news stories "I swear it was unloaded!" Treat it like it is and we never have that problem, right?

It is a fact that I treat all guns according to the rule until I can verify it with my own eyes.

jobu07 said:

Sorry Mainsail. I guess the sarcasm of that old saying didn't translate well.

What it was means is that there are a lot of people out there assumed that a gun was unloaded. By not respecting rule #1, they went ahead and didn't follow any of the other rules and then, well, people have had accidents.

I'm sure you've read it as many times as me in the news stories "I swear it was unloaded!" Treat it like it is and we never have that problem, right?

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I absolutely agree that a gun that was 'assumed to be unloaded' somehow (sarcasm) injured or killed someone. Which is sort of my point- words have meanings and we don't do ourselves any service pretending for the sake of emphasis. I did 20 in the USAF where "safety is paramount' ....well, except when it was inconvenient or more expensive.... and in the end were SO safe they were unsafe.

It's like when people say they won't grease their guns because grease attracts dust. Except it doesn't.

I say it like this "Treat all firearms as loaded at all times"

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Not really possible, but "Treat all firearms as loaded at all times except after personally verifying that they are not." Will pretty much solve all the potential issues -- Glock leg included

Why is " Treat all firearms as loaded at all times " not really possible?

As an NRA instructor, I've had this argument with several people, usually people who have been around guns their whole life. They think the NRA should adopt Jeff Coopers 4 rules instead of their current 3.

The issue comes in with new shooters. If you tell someone to follow the rule "Treat every gun as if it were loaded," they have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I've talked to new shooters and they don't know how to treat a gun as if it were loaded. Responses range from "panic because it might be loaded" to "pull the trigger until you know that it's unloaded." Most of them had some inkling of what to do, but it usually focused on unloading the gun or confirming that it is unloaded. Most of them didn't think at all about the direction the muzzle was pointing. Too many of them said simply to make sure that the safety is on or something to that effect.

That's why Coopers Rule #1 isn't very helpful to truly new shooters. It's also why those of us who have been shooting for most of our lives view it as so important. We comprehend the idea of muzzle awareness. Newbies don't. That is why Rule #1 in NRA training is "Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction." When someone asks "How do I treat a gun as if it is loaded?" the first step is to keep it pointed in a safe direction. To us, it's second nature, or it at least should be.

Jeff Cooper wasn't wrong, he made rules for people who weren't completely new to shooting.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Matt