jcwit
member
Common sense? Now thats a new idea!
Are Rules Rules?
- Thread starter Loosedhorse
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Common sense? Now thats a new idea!
dmazur
Member
OK, from Cooper's writings -
It would seem that while a great many shooters understand the four basic rules of safe gunhandling, they seem to think that the rules only apply on the range when under supervision. I have tried for decades to impress upon people the fact that the four rules are immutable and ever present. They apply at all times and in all circumstances. Somebody asked me what they were the other day (somewhat to my dismay), so for the purposes of those who came in late let me put them forth again now.
RULE 1 ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.
RULE 2 NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.
RULE 3 KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.
RULE 4 BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.
From this link - http://molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff6_2.html
I find it strange that this exception, as written by Cooper himself, is conveniently omitted in most arguments regarding "No Exceptions" for Rule 1. I certainly didn't find it until now.
Morrison's book is a good one, but IMO he "glossed over" this critical exception. He cautions not to assume a gun is unloaded, but to check it yourself. Cooper flat-out states the only exception, and further defines when it ends. (When you put it down.)
I'm somewhat pleased that I came to this conclusion as the only practical way of dealing with things, before I read this.
It would seem that while a great many shooters understand the four basic rules of safe gunhandling, they seem to think that the rules only apply on the range when under supervision. I have tried for decades to impress upon people the fact that the four rules are immutable and ever present. They apply at all times and in all circumstances. Somebody asked me what they were the other day (somewhat to my dismay), so for the purposes of those who came in late let me put them forth again now.
RULE 1 ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.
RULE 2 NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.
RULE 3 KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.
RULE 4 BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.
From this link - http://molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff6_2.html
I find it strange that this exception, as written by Cooper himself, is conveniently omitted in most arguments regarding "No Exceptions" for Rule 1. I certainly didn't find it until now.
Morrison's book is a good one, but IMO he "glossed over" this critical exception. He cautions not to assume a gun is unloaded, but to check it yourself. Cooper flat-out states the only exception, and further defines when it ends. (When you put it down.)
I'm somewhat pleased that I came to this conclusion as the only practical way of dealing with things, before I read this.
Loosedhorse
member
And how do you extrapolate this single, specified exception? Do you feel, for example, that Cooper would have been fine with--after checking that the gun is unloaded personally, and without putting the gun down--putting the muzzle to his eye and pulling the trigger?
Gosh, that would make a great picture: if anyone has a picture of the Colonel doing so, PLEASE POST!
If so, it would seem that even though he only mentioned an exception for Rule 1 (and only mentioned one exception, and specified that there was only one), he actually meant that all the Rules have exceptions.
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Common sense ain't very common, JC.
It's very simple. They are vivid mnemonic devices to avoid the common ways of shooting the wrong thing.
Anyone who thinks they are absolute laws such as mathematics or physics is not understanding their purpose.
Common scents - we don't need no common cents?
Anyone who thinks they are absolute laws such as mathematics or physics is not understanding their purpose.
Common scents - we don't need no common cents?
I think you need to read the rules carefully to see just how they apply, and think about the application of those rules before deciding just what they really mean.
I am more of a 3 rule guy, but that is personal preference and NRA training.
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Some would argue that a holster of any kind violates rule 1, yet hundreds of years of firearm handling experience contradicts that POV.
Every once in a while in a class someone asks about a gun that is left loaded in a nightstand drawer or something wondering if that violates rule 3. My answer is that gun is in use, just as a holstered and loaded gun is in use. It does not need to be fired to be "in use".
Rule 2 does not require that you actually pull the trigger. Just that you be ready to do so.
I am more of a 3 rule guy, but that is personal preference and NRA training.
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Some would argue that a holster of any kind violates rule 1, yet hundreds of years of firearm handling experience contradicts that POV.
Every once in a while in a class someone asks about a gun that is left loaded in a nightstand drawer or something wondering if that violates rule 3. My answer is that gun is in use, just as a holstered and loaded gun is in use. It does not need to be fired to be "in use".
Rule 2 does not require that you actually pull the trigger. Just that you be ready to do so.
Loosedhorse
member
Odd: if I were to re-phrase this as "Anyone who doesn't think they are absolute laws such as mathematics or physics is not understanding their purpose"...then suddenly it makes sense to me!
TurtlePhish
Member
I voted number two. I believe that adherence to the Four Rules is necessary to safe firearms handling, but I also believe that if you remove the bolt from a bolt action rifle or lock the action open on a semi-auto, both having magazines unloaded or removed, that it is okay to look at or down the muzzle for cleaning or inspection. And when checking the bore of a used gun, in some cases it's impossible to look down the bore from the chamber end, in which case an open action and bore light make it both safe and easy to see what the bore looks like.
Loosedhorse
member
I see I have failed to make my poll options unambiguous: I believe the exact same things that you said--and yet I voted for #1!
Oh, well, maybe it was the best I could do with the poll.
And I do appreciate your explanation.dmazur
Member
I'm happy enough knowing Col. Cooper wasn't crazy. He had a rather simple exception in mind to deal with what I called "administrative tasks", such as unloading, cleaning, inspections, etc.
At this point the purists can yell "No Exceptions" all they want. It isn't common sense, and Cooper knew it.
There has to be an exception to Rule 1, or you can't transistion to the inert pile of parts that is a disassembled gun.
Morrison explained exceptions to Rule 2, with the list of guns on tables, cased, etc. These were not being handled, and were incapable of firing. A gun with its action locked open is also incapable of firing, and most would consider this a valid exception to Rule 2.
For example, the salesmen in the gun store point the muzzle of the pistol at themselves as they hand it across for inspection, violating Rule 2. Except, the action is locked back so it's no longer a functional gun. No violation.
So, IMO, the Four Rules are an exercise in thinking. You have to think, what am I doing and have I taken care of the Four Rules. It's only by ignoring them, not by exercising proper "exceptions", that a dangerous situation is created.
The individual that put a hole in his workbench and believes he was following the Four Rules isn't quite there yet. I believe he said something about "Rule 1 doesn't say you have to inspect the gun." Maybe not, but if you do anything with it and a discharge occurs that you didn't intend, you were not following Rule 1. You assumed it was unloaded. That is the fundamental error.
Rule 1 means, IMO, "...so you'd better make darn sure it's unloaded before you proceed."
But nobody likes this interpretation.
At this point the purists can yell "No Exceptions" all they want. It isn't common sense, and Cooper knew it.
There has to be an exception to Rule 1, or you can't transistion to the inert pile of parts that is a disassembled gun.
Morrison explained exceptions to Rule 2, with the list of guns on tables, cased, etc. These were not being handled, and were incapable of firing. A gun with its action locked open is also incapable of firing, and most would consider this a valid exception to Rule 2.
For example, the salesmen in the gun store point the muzzle of the pistol at themselves as they hand it across for inspection, violating Rule 2. Except, the action is locked back so it's no longer a functional gun. No violation.
So, IMO, the Four Rules are an exercise in thinking. You have to think, what am I doing and have I taken care of the Four Rules. It's only by ignoring them, not by exercising proper "exceptions", that a dangerous situation is created.
The individual that put a hole in his workbench and believes he was following the Four Rules isn't quite there yet. I believe he said something about "Rule 1 doesn't say you have to inspect the gun." Maybe not, but if you do anything with it and a discharge occurs that you didn't intend, you were not following Rule 1. You assumed it was unloaded. That is the fundamental error.
Rule 1 means, IMO, "...so you'd better make darn sure it's unloaded before you proceed."
But nobody likes this interpretation.
I did too, I went to college and didn't become a snob. After all, I hang out with stinky old guys with guns. Scents?
Just some memory hints as I said before. Take them for what they are worth as a set of simple principles. Can they be phrased better, perhaps? But they serve the purpose.
Just some memory hints as I said before. Take them for what they are worth as a set of simple principles. Can they be phrased better, perhaps? But they serve the purpose.
Loosedhorse
member
Most of what you are referring to as "exceptions" I think of as simply cases where Rule 2 is clearly inapplicable--like my examples of a detached barrel or imaginary gun.
Maybe it's just a semantic difference, and an imaginary gun also represents an "exception" to Rule 2, rather than a case which Rule 2 was never intended to cover. But I tend to think (especially as he didn't mention such obvious "exceptions" as Morrison does) Cooper would have felt that, for example, asking a UPS driver to be careful where he drives so the cased pistols he's transporting to an FFL don't point at anything he's not "willing to destroy" would be ridiculous: an example that Rule 2 was never intended for, not an "exception."
People claiming that an action can be closed, and that gun pointed at someone and the trigger then pulled? That's pretty clearly asking for an exception in a case where Rule 2 clearly applies.
JRH6856
Member
Rules are rarely useful as absolutes and function best when they are applied conditionally. That is why we have courts of law with judges and juries.
The four rules are fine but will be interpreted and applied differently by different people under different condtions. I generally interpret and apply rules 1 and 2 as follows.
1. Always consider a gun to be loaded until verified otherwise. (assume that there are others who will follow this rule or who will consider it to be absolute, so just because you have verified a gun to be unloaded doesn't mean they have or will care that you have. This is important when applying rule 2.)
2. Never let the muzzle of a loaded gun cover anything you are not willing to kill or destroy. (This applies to loaded gun i.e, any gun not verified to be unloaded. If you are alone, It only matters that you know the gun to be unloaded. If you are not alone, it doesn't matter if you know the gun to be unloaed if anyone else does not know.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Now if I am at my LGS and someone is looking at a gun and point it in my direction, I don't know the gun is unloaded so by rule, the person is pointing a loaded gun at me. And since they are pointing a loaded gun at me, they must be willing to kill me. If I go further, and apply rule 4, I must assume they are sure of their target (me) so I must assume they are willing to kill me since they are pointing a loaded gun (rule 1) at me (rule 4) with willingness to kill (rule 2). If they place their finger on the trigger, then that is (by rule 3) intent.
If a person is pointing loaded gun at me with willingness to kill and intent to fire. Am I justified in shooting them in self defense? An absolute application of the rules would seem to say that I am. Which is why abolutes are rarely useful.
The four rules are fine but will be interpreted and applied differently by different people under different condtions. I generally interpret and apply rules 1 and 2 as follows.
1. Always consider a gun to be loaded until verified otherwise. (assume that there are others who will follow this rule or who will consider it to be absolute, so just because you have verified a gun to be unloaded doesn't mean they have or will care that you have. This is important when applying rule 2.)
2. Never let the muzzle of a loaded gun cover anything you are not willing to kill or destroy. (This applies to loaded gun i.e, any gun not verified to be unloaded. If you are alone, It only matters that you know the gun to be unloaded. If you are not alone, it doesn't matter if you know the gun to be unloaed if anyone else does not know.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Now if I am at my LGS and someone is looking at a gun and point it in my direction, I don't know the gun is unloaded so by rule, the person is pointing a loaded gun at me. And since they are pointing a loaded gun at me, they must be willing to kill me. If I go further, and apply rule 4, I must assume they are sure of their target (me) so I must assume they are willing to kill me since they are pointing a loaded gun (rule 1) at me (rule 4) with willingness to kill (rule 2). If they place their finger on the trigger, then that is (by rule 3) intent.
If a person is pointing loaded gun at me with willingness to kill and intent to fire. Am I justified in shooting them in self defense? An absolute application of the rules would seem to say that I am. Which is why abolutes are rarely useful.
Loosedhorse
member
What?
The 4 Rules are meant as governing the actions of someone handling a gun, not as determining legal justification for a SD shooting (which is reasonable belief that you are about to be illegally killed or mained, and you have no safe alternative to shooting). Giving such an confused example doesn't at all say that the 4 Rules aren't absolute when handling guns.
The question is: whether we all agree that that guy in the gunshop was wrong (certainly) and unsafe (more arguable) to point that unloaded gun at you.
Again, this seems confused. If you are saying, "There are specified conditions when the rules apply and when they don't", then please specify those conditions for us.
If instead you mean, "The Rules might or might not apply to any given situation. It has to be decided on a case by case basis, by a judge and jury, just like our criminal laws"...well, that would seem odd to me.
Seems like a lot of debate over the rules. I try hard to always follow the rules. But it seems to me it often comes down to the situation. Common sense in the application of the rules. A gun at a gun show. If it's on a display table pointing at me I don't run away. When some goober picks it up and starts waving it around I do.
I never look down the muzzle end of an assembled weapon. But only because I don't have to. When I owned revolvers and if I ever do again I might.
The rules are important because as someone has already said they help us stay in the habit of safe practice's. But If someone breaks into my house I'm not going to ask him to wait while I put my hearing and eye protection on.
Rigidly follow the rules so you are acutely aware and very careful when you can not.
I never look down the muzzle end of an assembled weapon. But only because I don't have to. When I owned revolvers and if I ever do again I might.
The rules are important because as someone has already said they help us stay in the habit of safe practice's. But If someone breaks into my house I'm not going to ask him to wait while I put my hearing and eye protection on.
Rigidly follow the rules so you are acutely aware and very careful when you can not.
JRH6856
Member
Loosed Horse,
And absolute rule applies absolutely with no exceptions or conditions. Otherwise it is not absolute. I gave an example of an absolute application of the rules. The rule says "All guns are always loaded" not "Only the gun you are handling is always loaded" So the customer in the LGS is handling a loaded gun. All else proceeds from that absolute application of rule 1.
So are you saying that the actions of someone handling a gun are never a justification of a SD shooting? Is this an absolute? Or is it conditional?
And absolute rule applies absolutely with no exceptions or conditions. Otherwise it is not absolute. I gave an example of an absolute application of the rules. The rule says "All guns are always loaded" not "Only the gun you are handling is always loaded" So the customer in the LGS is handling a loaded gun. All else proceeds from that absolute application of rule 1.
So are you saying that the actions of someone handling a gun are never a justification of a SD shooting? Is this an absolute? Or is it conditional?
Win1892
Member
I find my Kubota tractor with a loader and backhoe to be a much greater threat to my safety than any firearm I've ever held. Once I've cleared and checked the firearm, it's safe as long as it remains in my sight and under my control. At that point I see it no differently than a hammer.
When I am cleaning guns at my bench, I may set one down, work on another, and coming back to the first I will always check status.
That said, to each his own...unless you are at my range. Then my rules apply.
When I am cleaning guns at my bench, I may set one down, work on another, and coming back to the first I will always check status.
That said, to each his own...unless you are at my range. Then my rules apply.
There are always folks who insist that in rule making every possible situtation must be covered in extreme detail. If God had been one of those, the original Ten Commandments would have been in 4,236,842 Sections, 22,456,897,922 Paragraphs. And that would have been just Part I.
But God didn't just give us Ten Commandments, He gave us common sense; that is why I know it is wrong to mess with someone else's wife even if they don't live next door.
Jim
But God didn't just give us Ten Commandments, He gave us common sense; that is why I know it is wrong to mess with someone else's wife even if they don't live next door.
Jim
JRH6856
Member
Ever read the rest of Exodus? Or Leviticus or Deuteronomy? There are a lot more than 10 Commandments covering a lot of situations and details.
Maybe some of the differences in opinion stem from a simple semantic argument over the word rule. Strict application or adherence to the rules suits some people well, while others feel that defined exceptions negate the all the time every time nature of how they would define a rule.
Maybe they should be called a set of protocols instead of rules.
For myself, I have confidence that my chosen safety protocols (very much based on the four rules that I was taught as a kid) are logical and sufficient to keep me and mine safe.
Maybe they should be called a set of protocols instead of rules.
For myself, I have confidence that my chosen safety protocols (very much based on the four rules that I was taught as a kid) are logical and sufficient to keep me and mine safe.
dmazur
Member
In re: SD response to someone who isn't aware of the Four Rules at a gun store -
I watch the salesmen and see that they are doing the "action open" protocol, so I am annoyed that a customer sweeps me with the muzzle, but I am not in fear of my life.
Referring to Cooper again, it would probably depend on the condition "color". I'll admit to being in White at home. It's a quiet neighborhood, and we just don't have home invasions. When I'm out and about, I believe I'm in Yellow. More than likely, if someone took an uncased gun out of a truck and swept me with the muzzle, I'd be in Orange.
In the gun store? Still in Yellow. Context is everything.
I watch the salesmen and see that they are doing the "action open" protocol, so I am annoyed that a customer sweeps me with the muzzle, but I am not in fear of my life.
Referring to Cooper again, it would probably depend on the condition "color". I'll admit to being in White at home. It's a quiet neighborhood, and we just don't have home invasions. When I'm out and about, I believe I'm in Yellow. More than likely, if someone took an uncased gun out of a truck and swept me with the muzzle, I'd be in Orange.
In the gun store? Still in Yellow. Context is everything.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
In my experience, people who think there are or should be exceptions to the rules tend to think those exceptions happen constantly, and generally display a rather blasé attitude towards safety.
Are there certain narrow instances where one must violate the rules to engage in an activity?
Yes. For instance, I have no desire to drill a hole in my basement wall, but that's the risk I run every time I opt to engage in dry-fire practice. I freely acknowledge that by breaking the rules, I'm running the risk of shooting something I don't want to destroy, and as a result, engage in series of activities beforehand to ensure that things are as safe as possible.
Are there certain narrow instances where one must violate the rules to engage in an activity?
Yes. For instance, I have no desire to drill a hole in my basement wall, but that's the risk I run every time I opt to engage in dry-fire practice. I freely acknowledge that by breaking the rules, I'm running the risk of shooting something I don't want to destroy, and as a result, engage in series of activities beforehand to ensure that things are as safe as possible.
JRH6856
Member
I understand what you are saying but that also means that "Every gun is always loaded" is not absolute...which is my point.
FWIW "action open" does not equal "unloaded". It just makes it easier to verify whether it is or not. When I see a salesman open an action I assume he is verifying the gun is unloaded and allowing the customer to do so as well. But since I have not verified the gun to be unloaded, to assume that it is would violate the absolute rule that every gun is always loaded even if I allowed for Cooper's exception.
I agree with SharkHat that protocols would be a better word than rules for most people, but I also understand that some people actually need hard and fast rules with no exceptions because they appear to have no sense, common or otherwise (this is not a reference to anyone in this thread but rather to people I have known personally).
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