jcwit
member
Please explain how you would inspect the bore of a semi/auto rifle, lever action rifle, or a pump rifle.
Are Rules Rules?
- Thread starter Loosedhorse
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Please explain how you would inspect the bore of a semi/auto rifle, lever action rifle, or a pump rifle.
Certaindeaf
member
Rules. There is an exception to every rule. It would be impossible/folly to delineate/enumerate all potentialities.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Bore scope
They are getting fairly cheap nowadays. I have one that has some really good magnification to it as well and can get a really good look at my rifling and chamber.jcwit
member
You're going to take a bore scope to a gun show or gun auction?
What is "cheap"?
Many don't seem to understand that the 4 Rules were presented by Col. Jeff Cooper for gun handling. Where the muzzle is pointed when the gun is (safely) in a (proper) holster is not relevant to the 4 Rules. It may be one of your concerns but not in relation to the 4 Rules.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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I have an el cheapo one that I take to shows and such. No magnification but has a fairly crisp, clean viewer that will allow me to do a cursory inspection. It's small, battery operated, and has a small case. Cost around $180 a couple of years ago. I also have a much more expensive one that I use to to a really thorough inspection for pitting. Has up to 10x magnification and a fairly long flex tube "snake". That one, used, set me back close to $1200 but it works really well and allows me a VERY good look at chambers, throat condition, as well as rifling condition. That one I don't take to shows but I do take it to auctions so I can really inspect possible items I wish to bid on for condition.
Trunk Monkey
member
jcwit said:
When you think about it that's probably not a bad idea
hermannr
Member
My first rule is 1: "any gun that is in operating condition is loaded at all times"
2: Because you know it is loaded, handle it as such.
3: If you think the gun is unloaded, refer to rule one.
2: Because you know it is loaded, handle it as such.
3: If you think the gun is unloaded, refer to rule one.
Loosedhorse
member
Sure--as soon as the folks I was responding to edit their posts.
The proper response to argument (my first post) is argument. The proper response to their posts (ad hominem) is ad hominem. And besides: I'm human, and it's fun (in small amounts).
Perhaps a Rule 5 then: You may break any ONE of these Rules, but not TWO AT THE SAME TIME!
Well, it is part of a thoughtful post. Let me think about that one. But at first blush, I'd say that Rule 2 is not supposed to prevent NDs--just supposed to minimize the damage if one occurs.
Success! Thanks.
Just to be clear: I am planning on learning here, and thank you all.
I wonder if a big part of my OP has been missed. As I said, worrying about what the muzzle of an isolated (unattached to any firearm) barrel is covering makes no sense to me--to anyone?--and so I have had to decide when Rule 2 applies to a muzzle, and when it doesn't. Like, for instance, when the gun is holstered or cased. But then, once I've decided when it applies, I don't violate Rule 2 ever in those case.
Maybe some of you have decided that Rule 2 doesn't apply if you really, really, really check that the gun is unloaded? And you are consistent with that?
Again, I'm not sure why we'd call something a rule if you can break it "sometimes", with that "sometimes" remaining quite undefined. Unless we're implying it can ONLY be "broken" under certain, clearly defined conditions when (we can all agree?) it doesn't really apply.
Sort of like making an additional rule ("Rule 2 doesn't apply when...")--but then THAT additional rule always applies?
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
So when I'm handling my Glock, in preparation to clean it, how do I avoid getting stuck in a recursive loop?
jcwit
member
How bout inspecting a .22 semi auto pistol, most have non removeable barrels. Or better yet a revolver of any kind.
How does that work for .22 calibers?
In my 50 some years of going to gun showes and gun auctions I have yet to see anyone using a bore scope to inspect a gun barrel of any kind, but then maybe I just missed it.
huntsman
Member
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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The el cheapo, the smallest bore I can check is .32cal. I have 2 snakes for the pricier one and can inspect .22 but the smaller snake doesn't have the magnifying chip in it. I actually just started using them a few years ago after a bad experience with a firearm I bought at auction. Once I got it home I found that the throat was pretty badly eroded and the bore was pitted. Basically was a ruined barrel which made the gun about 1/3 the value. Was near impossible to see this with just a bore light.
dmazur
Member
There's this link on another forum -
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html
which saved me the effort of looking up my copy of the book.
I won't discuss this at length, but the text explains things, and I don't encounter the explanations very often when I read about The Four Rules. I believe people are getting the rules alone, without explanation, then applying their own interpretation.
For example (Rule 1) -
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
...This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it...
You will notice the discussion of checking to make sure the gun is unloaded. Before doing what, exactly? Unfortunately, the author does not continue his explanation, but I would imagine this would be appropriate before handing it to someone else, cleaning, etc.
Does everyone discussing Rule 1 automatically discuss checking the gun? No. Just the statement of the rule seems to be sufficient.
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
...A firearm holstered properly, lying on a table, or placed in a scabbard is of no danger to anyone. Only when handled is there a need for concern...
You will notice the clear exception for guns which are not being handled. Unfortunately, the author did not include guns with their actions locked open, but I believe it is clear that a gun so configured is also "inert", and this is why gun store salesman use this procedure when passing a gun to a customer, with the muzzle pointed at themselves. And, if the customer is allowed to run the action and dry fire, he should observe the Four Rules while he proceeds, then lock the action open before handing it back to the salesman.
Is this distinction noted in discussions? No. Instead, there is discussion of all the muzzles in the gun store being pointed at the customers.
Absolutely true. He left out administrative chores, such as loading, unloading, cleaning and inspections. I'll bet he never imagined readers would try to apply the Four Rules to everything...
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html
which saved me the effort of looking up my copy of the book.
I won't discuss this at length, but the text explains things, and I don't encounter the explanations very often when I read about The Four Rules. I believe people are getting the rules alone, without explanation, then applying their own interpretation.
For example (Rule 1) -
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
...This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it...
You will notice the discussion of checking to make sure the gun is unloaded. Before doing what, exactly? Unfortunately, the author does not continue his explanation, but I would imagine this would be appropriate before handing it to someone else, cleaning, etc.
Does everyone discussing Rule 1 automatically discuss checking the gun? No. Just the statement of the rule seems to be sufficient.
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
...A firearm holstered properly, lying on a table, or placed in a scabbard is of no danger to anyone. Only when handled is there a need for concern...
You will notice the clear exception for guns which are not being handled. Unfortunately, the author did not include guns with their actions locked open, but I believe it is clear that a gun so configured is also "inert", and this is why gun store salesman use this procedure when passing a gun to a customer, with the muzzle pointed at themselves. And, if the customer is allowed to run the action and dry fire, he should observe the Four Rules while he proceeds, then lock the action open before handing it back to the salesman.
Is this distinction noted in discussions? No. Instead, there is discussion of all the muzzles in the gun store being pointed at the customers.
Absolutely true. He left out administrative chores, such as loading, unloading, cleaning and inspections. I'll bet he never imagined readers would try to apply the Four Rules to everything...
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Here is what the 4 rules are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBH8AySK9Fc&feature=related
Any intelligent person knows when they can look in a barrel and when they cannot. the rule does not need to be written for that.
The fellow in the video obviously is unaware that pointing a loaded gun at ones self is dangerous and stupid. These are the kinds of people who shoot them selves, not intelligent people who are cleaning unloaded weapons.
What I do not get, is all the people who shoot themselves cleaning "unloaded" guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBH8AySK9Fc&feature=related
Any intelligent person knows when they can look in a barrel and when they cannot. the rule does not need to be written for that.
The fellow in the video obviously is unaware that pointing a loaded gun at ones self is dangerous and stupid. These are the kinds of people who shoot them selves, not intelligent people who are cleaning unloaded weapons.
What I do not get, is all the people who shoot themselves cleaning "unloaded" guns.
Iramo94
Member
I chose a third option, because I think of the four rules as safeguards that are surrounding the real rule. I find this similar to, for example, the laws of the Hebrews that were used as a "buffer zone" around the ten commandments.
Basically, the real rule is that you need common sense, you need to think into the future with the realization that every decision you make could possibly hurt someone. I suppose this borders on existentialism. Humans are inherently radically free and completely responsible. The four rules ensure that we control this free will so as to not make mistakes. However, they are not absolute, because there are some situations where you must carefully break a rule to accomplish a basic task like cleaning or holstering. They are made to stop negligent discharges during use, not to prevent useful actions that may or may not incur risk.
By the way, I have a tile floor that I am not willing to have bullet holes in. I of course also have neighbors here in suburbia, and the sky has proven to be quite dangerous (bullets fired up at an angle retain a ballistic trajectory and are still lethal on the way back down) on many occasions. Any ideas on where to point the muzzle?
Basically, the real rule is that you need common sense, you need to think into the future with the realization that every decision you make could possibly hurt someone. I suppose this borders on existentialism. Humans are inherently radically free and completely responsible. The four rules ensure that we control this free will so as to not make mistakes. However, they are not absolute, because there are some situations where you must carefully break a rule to accomplish a basic task like cleaning or holstering. They are made to stop negligent discharges during use, not to prevent useful actions that may or may not incur risk.
By the way, I have a tile floor that I am not willing to have bullet holes in. I of course also have neighbors here in suburbia, and the sky has proven to be quite dangerous (bullets fired up at an angle retain a ballistic trajectory and are still lethal on the way back down) on many occasions. Any ideas on where to point the muzzle?
Loosedhorse
member
Perhaps you can find the passage in his writings where he says his rules don't apply. Particularly odd to me that "All guns are always loaded" doesn't have anything to do with loading and unloading guns, but I'll believe he said it when I read it.
Sure. Buy a bullet snailtrap, or take a barrel (container) and fill it with sand. Just because Nature or your contractor didn't give you a ready-made back stop, doesn't get you off the hook. You're aware of the problem, you can fix it...if you choose to. You're not helpless.
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Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
I would bet that 9 out of 10 of those are people screwing around, and they just said they were "cleaning" their guns in order to cover their own arses.
mljdeckard
Member
I was in a language class with a SEAL. I had recently seen some footage of some SEALs doing some kind of room clearing exercise, and they were crossing back and forth in front of each others' muzzles. So I asked this guy if that was a super-advanced tactic that teams sometimes use. He told me that if a team member repeatedly flagged another like that, he would give him remedial training as a pretense to finding a reason to drop him from the team.
No exceptions.
Now, there are some ways I see the rules that aren't explicitly spelled out in the rules. The main example that comes to mind is; "Isn't a pistol in a shoulder holster flagging everyone behind you?" and the answer would be no, because you aren't HANDLING that pistol. I look the other way for rifles dangling one-handed by the sling, although every possible precaution should still be taken both by the holder and everyone around.
No exceptions.
Now, there are some ways I see the rules that aren't explicitly spelled out in the rules. The main example that comes to mind is; "Isn't a pistol in a shoulder holster flagging everyone behind you?" and the answer would be no, because you aren't HANDLING that pistol. I look the other way for rifles dangling one-handed by the sling, although every possible precaution should still be taken both by the holder and everyone around.
dmazur
Member
First of all, the author's name is Morrison, who cited Cooper's Four Rules in his book. Excerpts from his book is what is available in the other forum, not Cooper's writings. Morrison offered his explanations of the Four Rules.
My statement was not that the Four Rules don't apply, but that 1) they were intended for gun handling, which does not include everything that someone might do with a gun, and 2) they are not explained in unambiguous terms.
Why can't Rule I just be explained as Morrison did? All Guns Are Always Loaded. So, every single time you pick one up, make sure it is unloaded before you proceed with some action that requires an unloaded gun. (Or, in the case of heading out with a gun in CCW status, make sure it is loaded.)
It is obvious that all guns can't always be loaded. What has to be done is to adopt an unfailing practice of inspection. Never, never assume. Assumption of a particular status is the danger. The obvious one, and the one that causes the most damage, is the assumption that a gun is unloaded when it is not. But, under rare circumstances, assumption that a gun is loaded when it is unloaded can also get you killed.
captain awesome
Member
Because of rule number two which I always follow with rare exception to be explained in a moment, I still have a foot. I have been witness to more than one negligent discharges, which means someone already broke other rules, but because rule number two was followed, no one and nothing important got hurt. A gun went off pointed about 2 feet away from my foot inside a house. (this friend is no longer around firearms and me at the same time, but I am grateful he was at least as careful about rule 2 as I am) I am a strong believer in it.
That being said, I have had unloaded guns pointed at things I am not willing to destroy, such as a camera (on a tripod), the inside of my safe and gun cases, the trunk of my car, the bed of my truck, wall mounts and pictures of game, the list goes on and on. To me the definition of an unloaded gun is one that in the last few moments I personally have opened, visually inspected, and felt in the chamber(s) and magazines and been able to say undeniably that said firearm is indeed cleared and emptied and has not left my hands and sight. Then and only then is it unloaded and safe to point at the things I have mentioned above, and obviously only when there is no person behind them, and my finger stays of the trigger. This applies to every gun I pick up or am handed every time, and every time it is set down it must be done again when it is picked back up.
Checking optics and lining up sights, and doing drawing drills and quickly finding a target are things that I feel must be done, since I don't make it to the range or desert to shoot nearly as often as I would like to maintain the level of proficiency I feel necessary. I also realize that a firearm sitting there undisturbed is not going to fire by itself. These are my personal guide lines yours probably vary, but the definition of "never" is absolute, and by nature impossible to follow completely, because aside from targets, game and bad guys, there is nothing I am willing to destroy, the inside of my house included.
That being said, I have had unloaded guns pointed at things I am not willing to destroy, such as a camera (on a tripod), the inside of my safe and gun cases, the trunk of my car, the bed of my truck, wall mounts and pictures of game, the list goes on and on. To me the definition of an unloaded gun is one that in the last few moments I personally have opened, visually inspected, and felt in the chamber(s) and magazines and been able to say undeniably that said firearm is indeed cleared and emptied and has not left my hands and sight. Then and only then is it unloaded and safe to point at the things I have mentioned above, and obviously only when there is no person behind them, and my finger stays of the trigger. This applies to every gun I pick up or am handed every time, and every time it is set down it must be done again when it is picked back up.
Checking optics and lining up sights, and doing drawing drills and quickly finding a target are things that I feel must be done, since I don't make it to the range or desert to shoot nearly as often as I would like to maintain the level of proficiency I feel necessary. I also realize that a firearm sitting there undisturbed is not going to fire by itself. These are my personal guide lines yours probably vary, but the definition of "never" is absolute, and by nature impossible to follow completely, because aside from targets, game and bad guys, there is nothing I am willing to destroy, the inside of my house included.
exavid
Member
If one was to get on a bus carrying a range back with two pistols (or revolvers, we don't want to get into that right now) pointing in opposite directions in the bag what do we do? Carry the bag vertically so one gun points up and one down? If you happen to be on the second story of a three story building with other buildings on every side where to you point the gun you may be carrying? Rules in this case are guides. Not immutable law. Common sense figures in this situation as it should in most.
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