JRH6856
Member
But they are still there and make such good clubs for beating with.
Are Rules Rules?
- Thread starter Loosedhorse
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But they are still there and make such good clubs for beating with.
JohnBT
Member
"after your sights are on target and your finger is on the trigger so you are free to do as you please"
So you can turn around and sweep the crowd? You can point the gun anywhere you like because you are "free to do as you please"? That's what you said - "free to do as you please" after your sights are on the target even when they come off the target. That's a strange interpretation of a rule.
Words do have meaning. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
John
So you can turn around and sweep the crowd? You can point the gun anywhere you like because you are "free to do as you please"? That's what you said - "free to do as you please" after your sights are on the target even when they come off the target. That's a strange interpretation of a rule.
Words do have meaning. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
John
Loosedhorse
member
This may be the point we are currently debating.
Flintknapper
Member
JohnBT wrote:
Agreed.....
Unless you are Jerry Miculek (or the likes) pretty much everyone has their “finger on the trigger” during recoil…if only briefly. So strictly speaking…rule #3 is violated by nearly everyone once the first shot breaks. Not that there is any REAL danger in that…since the weapon is rendered inert UNTIL the trigger is reset.
So, yes….you are correct and I would gladly join you in pointing out why adhering to absolute rules (in their strictest sense) is not possible or practical.
For the most part….the “rules/guidelines” were established with regards to “loaded weapons” or those being “handled”. Col. Cooper, in his typical dogmatic and unbending fashion helped to instill in folks an unreasonable fear of the weapon itself.
He later somewhat amended that….but the “rules” had taken off by then and those prone to getting the “heebie jebbies” and certain folks who prefer things “dumbed down” quickly embraced them and hold them to be Gospel to this day.
The “rules” are useful and appropriate in the right context. However, the “rules” are literally not possible to follow (to the letter) if you own, carry or use a firearm.
To argue otherwise is pure folly and I will be happy to point out the hypocrisy of it to anyone who thinks the rules MUST be followed rigidly at ALL times.
Agreed.....
Unless you are Jerry Miculek (or the likes) pretty much everyone has their “finger on the trigger” during recoil…if only briefly. So strictly speaking…rule #3 is violated by nearly everyone once the first shot breaks. Not that there is any REAL danger in that…since the weapon is rendered inert UNTIL the trigger is reset.
So, yes….you are correct and I would gladly join you in pointing out why adhering to absolute rules (in their strictest sense) is not possible or practical.
For the most part….the “rules/guidelines” were established with regards to “loaded weapons” or those being “handled”. Col. Cooper, in his typical dogmatic and unbending fashion helped to instill in folks an unreasonable fear of the weapon itself.
He later somewhat amended that….but the “rules” had taken off by then and those prone to getting the “heebie jebbies” and certain folks who prefer things “dumbed down” quickly embraced them and hold them to be Gospel to this day.
The “rules” are useful and appropriate in the right context. However, the “rules” are literally not possible to follow (to the letter) if you own, carry or use a firearm.
To argue otherwise is pure folly and I will be happy to point out the hypocrisy of it to anyone who thinks the rules MUST be followed rigidly at ALL times.
JRH6856
Member
[never mind]
Loosedhorse
member
Okay, I'll play. I have already made a stipulation:
Given that stipulation, my hypocrisy is...
Flintknapper
Member
^^^^^^
WHICH "rule" are you making reference to?
WHICH "rule" are you making reference to?
Loosedhorse
member
All of them. Although Rule 4 doesn't seem to apply to any gun unless the holder is actually in the process of shooting (has a "target").
And I'll take Cooper's exception that if you're still holding a gun you just confirmed is unloaded, then Rule 1 doesn't apply--even though I had an ND in exactly that circumstance...
And I'll take Cooper's exception that if you're still holding a gun you just confirmed is unloaded, then Rule 1 doesn't apply--even though I had an ND in exactly that circumstance...
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
Member
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Well, since you had a ND then I would have to surmise that you FAILED to CONFIRM that it was unloaded. I've yet to see an UNLOADED firearm ND. But I have seen MANY unconfirmed unloaded firearms go bang. Reminds me of that saying in Forest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does"
Loosedhorse
member
Of course. But that doesn't mean I hadn't just checked--only that I hadn't checked well, and therefore fully believed I had confirmed! And that doesn't violate a rule.
Probably why Rule 1 is phrased as it is.Oh: because I believe in Rule 1, even though I had just checked, the gun was pointed at a bare foundation wall when I had the ND. Now I know what lead foil looks like.
It is not just stupid folks who have an ND. Any of us can have a stupid moment...which I've always thought was kinda the raison d'être of the 4 Rules.
I'm told even Jeff Cooper had an "accidental discharge." Maybe that's why his Rules are so stupid?
I've never had a ND.......but I'm wise enough to know that it's only a matter of time. I've seem them happen to people who are so safety conscious you wouldn't think that it's possible.
I use the two different sense method, to verify that a firearm is unloaded. I look in the chamber and then stick a finger in, to verify what my eyes are telling me. This is borrowed from aviation where you can inspect the same thing repeatedly.
I use the two different sense method, to verify that a firearm is unloaded. I look in the chamber and then stick a finger in, to verify what my eyes are telling me. This is borrowed from aviation where you can inspect the same thing repeatedly.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Absolutes are like sitting at a stop sign waiting for it to change. At some point common sense has to come into play.
Loosedhorse
member
I think that's a great attitude, if it's meant to make sure you "never" violate Rules 2-4 when handling a gun.
But in fact, I think that you can avoid them "forever." And that is my current goal: I know I could have avoided mine if I'd added some better safeguards (like the ones you describe)--so I've added them. That ND is (unbelievably to me) 17 years ago now. Not that I remember.
Or: maybe breaking the Rules is like waiting at a RR crossing with a LONG freight train in front of you; eventually you get bored, notice you haven't been hurt yet...so you try to cross while the train's still in front of you.
Analogies are wonderful! No wonder they caused the Dark Ages.
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dmazur
Member
Here is a restatement of The Four Rules (again), with some additions that might be "an exercise in thinking". By that I mean, how can we honor the intent of the rule as we are breaking it.
I believe this is, perhaps, the best way to proceed. Sort of a structured approach to common sense. After all, the concepts of The Four Rules are simple enough.
RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again. (This means you have to check every time you pick a gun up, before you proceed with something that requires it to be unloaded, such as cleaning. And, it isn't a bad idea to do a "chamber check" to make sure the weapon is loaded before holstering for CCW.)
RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such. (This concern is for weapons being held and capable of firing. Cased or holstered guns, guns laying on tabletops, and guns with actions locked open do not present a danger, regardless of where the muzzle is pointing. One of the major concerns is during draw and presentation, especially with cross-draw or shoulder holsters. The support hand & arm must be deliberately elevated to prevent sweeping it with the muzzle.)
RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about. (Just like Rule 2, the biggest problem occurs during the draw and presentation. Even after presentation, multiple shots may be necessary, and of course your finger remains on the trigger during this response. If the dynamics of the threat require you to move, the shooter should keep his finger off the trigger while moving, then replace it as he re-engages. A related problem is reholstering, where shirt-tails and retention straps frequently act as "fingers", especially troublesome with trigger-operated safeties.)
RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it. (And, because recoil is going to lift the muzzle, techniques such as "double-tapping" require practice so the shooter doesn't unintentionally shoot above the intended target.)
The exercise isn't comprehensive. I believe each shooter will discover their own details as they struggle with the gun handling safety problem.
I believe this is, perhaps, the best way to proceed. Sort of a structured approach to common sense. After all, the concepts of The Four Rules are simple enough.
RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again. (This means you have to check every time you pick a gun up, before you proceed with something that requires it to be unloaded, such as cleaning. And, it isn't a bad idea to do a "chamber check" to make sure the weapon is loaded before holstering for CCW.)
RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such. (This concern is for weapons being held and capable of firing. Cased or holstered guns, guns laying on tabletops, and guns with actions locked open do not present a danger, regardless of where the muzzle is pointing. One of the major concerns is during draw and presentation, especially with cross-draw or shoulder holsters. The support hand & arm must be deliberately elevated to prevent sweeping it with the muzzle.)
RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about. (Just like Rule 2, the biggest problem occurs during the draw and presentation. Even after presentation, multiple shots may be necessary, and of course your finger remains on the trigger during this response. If the dynamics of the threat require you to move, the shooter should keep his finger off the trigger while moving, then replace it as he re-engages. A related problem is reholstering, where shirt-tails and retention straps frequently act as "fingers", especially troublesome with trigger-operated safeties.)
RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it. (And, because recoil is going to lift the muzzle, techniques such as "double-tapping" require practice so the shooter doesn't unintentionally shoot above the intended target.)
The exercise isn't comprehensive. I believe each shooter will discover their own details as they struggle with the gun handling safety problem.
Flintknapper
Member
Loosedhorse wrote:
Your hypocrisy is reframing the argument by conveniently applying “stipulations” while at the same time espousing the need to follow the rules!
My argument (which clearly isn’t the same as yours), revolves about the idea that the “rules” (as originally written) were to be followed rigidly, no exceptions.
Actually, you promote that position….BUT first make provisions in order to make the rules reasonable and achievable. You don’t see the hypocrisy in that? Make your own rules...then always follow THEM, is what you are saying.
If we are to argue this, (and I hope we won’t)……the first order of business would be to establish WHICH set of rules we will be discussing, yours…(as you have seen fit to apply them) or the original set (taken quite literally by some folks).
If the former, then we have no area of disagreement that I can see…since I subscribe to the same position: “applies to handled, functional, assembled guns that have their actions closed”. If the latter, then yes….I will argue/discuss that with you.
But... I suspect it will result in a colossal waste of our time.
If I am misunderstanding your position...please correct me, but it seems we are not even talking about the same thing.
Your hypocrisy is reframing the argument by conveniently applying “stipulations” while at the same time espousing the need to follow the rules!
My argument (which clearly isn’t the same as yours), revolves about the idea that the “rules” (as originally written) were to be followed rigidly, no exceptions.
Actually, you promote that position….BUT first make provisions in order to make the rules reasonable and achievable. You don’t see the hypocrisy in that? Make your own rules...then always follow THEM, is what you are saying.
If we are to argue this, (and I hope we won’t)……the first order of business would be to establish WHICH set of rules we will be discussing, yours…(as you have seen fit to apply them) or the original set (taken quite literally by some folks).
If the former, then we have no area of disagreement that I can see…since I subscribe to the same position: “applies to handled, functional, assembled guns that have their actions closed”. If the latter, then yes….I will argue/discuss that with you.
But... I suspect it will result in a colossal waste of our time.
If I am misunderstanding your position...please correct me, but it seems we are not even talking about the same thing.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
Member
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Certaindeaf
member
^
It seems you have a booger on your bang switch.
It seems you have a booger on your bang switch.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Seeing as the poll is still pretty close, and the thread is still generating discussion, those who are claiming it's beating a dead horse might be better off elsewhere as they obviously don't feel like taking part in the actual thread anymore.
jcwit
member
Cussed and discussed!
Loosedhorse
member
Actually, no. My stipulations were stated in the OP. So, if you are responding without acknowledging them (or without any knowledge of them!
), then the hypocrisy is entirely yours...For supplying an answer to a question that I never asked.
As I said in the OP, perhaps you believe that there is an "exception" to Rule 2 for toy guns, and disassembled barrels...and imaginary guns!...because Rule 2 is supposed to apply to them. I say that's ridiculous, because Rule 2 was never meant for them. And then I told you what I believe they are meant for. Interestingly, as soon as I apply those stips, I no longer have to use exceptions, and I can follow the rules consistently.
Without hypocrisy!
Now, as has been pointed out, this may be semantic. I may be stipulating when the Rules apply, and then I need no exceptions; while you may prefer to apply the Rules more broadly (for what reason, I can't fathom) and then claim you need exceptions to back those broader apps out again--and then the Rules to "make sense."
Whatever works.
Almost. As stated in the OP, decide a priori when the Rules apply (for example, closed-action assembled real gun that you have not checked), and when they don't (for example, imaginary gun). And then stick to the rules in all cases that you already decided they apply.
And that gives the consistency that is (IMHO) the only real advantage that rules convey. Otherwise, call them Cooper's 4 Suggestions.
Flintknapper
Member
^^^^^^^^^^^
"Semantics", no......a bunch of gibberish and double talk yes. You brought nothing of value back to the argument, but my impression is that you are in this for the "sport" of it anyway.
Have fun with it.
"Semantics", no......a bunch of gibberish and double talk yes. You brought nothing of value back to the argument, but my impression is that you are in this for the "sport" of it anyway.
Have fun with it.
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