plexreticle
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It's the "unloaded" ones that get you.
Arguing About The Rules
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1911 guy
Member
The "Four Rules" were conceived as a method to mitigate failure to follow any one rule.
While we can debate the semantics of the rules, especially "Rule One", we cannot dispute the fact that assuming every firearm to be loaded will result in more judicious gun handling.
I was told many times growing up that the two loudest sounds when handling a gun are:
"Click" when you want "Boom"
"Boom" when you want "Click".
While we can debate the semantics of the rules, especially "Rule One", we cannot dispute the fact that assuming every firearm to be loaded will result in more judicious gun handling.
I was told many times growing up that the two loudest sounds when handling a gun are:
"Click" when you want "Boom"
"Boom" when you want "Click".
I recently went shooting with a former co-worker/longtime friend. We had a good time at the range. We went to a range close to his home. It was the first time I had shot at that range. We had a good shoot... BUT. IF we shoot at the range closest to my home, there will be a problem. His gun safety practices do not follow the basics. He would be warned, and then removed from the range where I am a member. When I mentioned that his actions would be unacceptable at any other place that I shoot at, he seemed annoyed. Granted, I am annoying. Some folks don't take well to having their shooting being criticised by anybody.
In other words. If you don't want to follow common sense safety rules, stay home and dry fire with your gun in hand.
In other words. If you don't want to follow common sense safety rules, stay home and dry fire with your gun in hand.
wally
Member
You'd never be able to dry-fire except at the range (hardly worth the trip).
How'd you take apart your Glock (or many others) if you treated it as loaded and couldn't pull the trigger (except at the range)?
There any many things you might want to do after you've insured its unloaded and safe that you wouldn't do if it were loaded. Its the "at all times" part that that makes it impossible without the qualifier (which I believe was in the original statement of the rule by Jeff Cooper) of "until you have verified it is not".
I like the point made by morcey2 that this rule is inadequate for new shooters who may not yet know how to safely handle a loaded gun.
berettaprofessor
Member
Hope you're not shooting with this friend anymore, because he's not a friend if he cares more about his own misconceptions than your life.
Search and read about the psych concept "Unskilled and unaware"
Elkins45
Member
No, because there's a separate rule reminding me not to. My point is that treating all guns as if they are loaded does nothing to remind people that the bullet may go beyond the intended target. And saying "well, it's just common sense" doesn't wash because ALL of the gun handling rules SHOULD be common sense but sadly aren't to many.
The assertion that only rule one is needed is incomplete in my opinion. Saying "treat all guns as if they are loaded" doesn't explicitly rule out other stupid behaviors unless one assumes you know what are/aren't acceptable practices with loaded guns.
jcwit
member
Has anyone here on this discussion ever been to a gun show and picked up & handled a firearm?
Just the act of touching has broken rule #1.
Just the act of touching has broken rule #1.
45_auto
Member
jcwit said:
How is that? Does your Rule 1 say that you're not allowed to touch a loaded gun?
I pick up a gun at a gun show no differently than I pick up my loaded duty pistol to put it in my holster.
Both are treated as if they are loaded. One of them has recently been verified as being loaded, both may possibly be loaded. No way to know until you pick it up (following the rules) and check.
Hangingrock
Member
I believe one has to take all four rules in context as a unit of meaning and not segregate one from the other. Otherwise its the equivalent of taking some thing out of context.
1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger of the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target.
1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger of the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target.
X-Rap
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I'm guessing his point here is that there is rarely a time when someone isn't covered by a muzzle at a halfway busy gun show, a point I'm in full agreement on. The same can be said of gun counter display cases.
I once had a friend of my mothers back when I was 12 or 13 keep reciting rule one until I was about to loose respect for my elders. I was in our basement cleaning guns and he and his girlfriend came down and saw me with gun in hand and immediately started reciting the mantra as if my personally clearing the lever gun in front of him and showing the open chamber had no effect on this automaton. He continued as he went back up the steps.
This is the behavior that defeats the purpose of the rules and mindlessly repeating them does not help.
1911 guy
Member
Just the act of touching has broken rule #1.
So how do you holster your carry gun? I can only assume you dropped it in a blind panic because you don't want to touch a loaded gun.
Both the Cooper version "All guns are always loaded" and the NRA version "Treat every gun as if it were loaded" accomplish the same end.
When you bloody pick up a bloody gun, bloody watch where the bloody muzzle is bloody pointing.
It amazes me that so many people seek to justify being fools and seeing lack of muzzle discipline as some sort of badge of honor because they enjoy making third-grade level arguments on the internet.
So how do you holster your carry gun? I can only assume you dropped it in a blind panic because you don't want to touch a loaded gun.
Both the Cooper version "All guns are always loaded" and the NRA version "Treat every gun as if it were loaded" accomplish the same end.
When you bloody pick up a bloody gun, bloody watch where the bloody muzzle is bloody pointing.
It amazes me that so many people seek to justify being fools and seeing lack of muzzle discipline as some sort of badge of honor because they enjoy making third-grade level arguments on the internet.
Onward Allusion
Member
Semantics. Reminds me of the guys at the Tuner forums. 
Neo-Luddite
Member
In my house the kids have been taught that 'all guns are loaded' since birth. As they got older, they've been taught that holstered pistols in the house are loaded.
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I know--it's like double-secret probation in Animal House. It works for us. The big master rule is that they don't handle without permission but regardless, the first thing they do is check the chamber.
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I know--it's like double-secret probation in Animal House. It works for us. The big master rule is that they don't handle without permission but regardless, the first thing they do is check the chamber.
jcwit
member
What I'm pointing out is said in post #35 by xrap in the first sentence.
The muzzle of the gun is pointed at someone or something that will cause harm.
We can create rules to the point we no longer have a sport.
We've already pretty much done that with grade schools, now it's getting into high school.
Life itself comes with danger.
The secret? Common sense.
The muzzle of the gun is pointed at someone or something that will cause harm.
We can create rules to the point we no longer have a sport.
We've already pretty much done that with grade schools, now it's getting into high school.
Life itself comes with danger.
The secret? Common sense.
First, the Rule is properly stated, "All guns are always loaded", and we'll see Jeff Cooper's explanation later.morcey2 said:
In any case, our group of instructors (we teach monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes) find the Rule to be helpful and quite well understood by the complete beginners in our classes. Of course since we're all NRA certified instructors and we're teaching the NRA syllabus, we focus on the NRA three rules. But since we're all Gunsite alumnae, we bring up Jeff Cooper's Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." This is how we explain it:
- If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule One applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
- If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
- If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.
Whenever I take a gun in hand, I know it is loaded and conduct myself accordingly.
Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.
- Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
- Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
- Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:
Then as As John Schaefer, another student of Col. Cooper, puts it:
And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:
A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:
Gunsite is a hot range. The pistol in your holster, or the rifle or shotgun slung over your shoulder, is expected to be always loaded. So this is posted on every range at Gunsite:
Let's all remember that real life in the real world is a hot range.
Deaf Smith
Member
That term was meant as a MINDSET. You TREAT all guns as IF they are ALWAYS loaded.
And the other three mealy codify of what the first one means.
Deaf
Sheepdog1968
Member
I was at Thunder Ranch, Clint said he painted the sign with the original rules. For a few days there was only the first rule. The other three were added for the dimwitted and stupid ( or slow, I can't recall).
assumes facts not in evidence
We know what Cooper was trying to communicate, but when we tell young people something that is clearly not so, our attempt to establish credibility is doomed.
We can speak among ourselves in our own special argot, but when we are trying to get the message across to twelve-year-olds we say, we demonstrate, we ask questions and we have them demonstrate.
If words alone were ever sufficient, that day is long past.
We know what Cooper was trying to communicate, but when we tell young people something that is clearly not so, our attempt to establish credibility is doomed.
We can speak among ourselves in our own special argot, but when we are trying to get the message across to twelve-year-olds we say, we demonstrate, we ask questions and we have them demonstrate.
If words alone were ever sufficient, that day is long past.
Words alone were never sufficient. Words alone aren't sufficient. Words alone never will be sufficient.rust collector said:
It always was, is, and will be necessary to teach through effective demonstration, explanation, and discussion. But when an understanding of concepts and information has been achieved through effective teaching, words can call forth that understanding to affect our attitudes and regulate our actions.
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Salmoneye
Member
I got into a 'discussion' on one of the forums for changing the wording of the Colonel's rule slightly to:
"All guns are loaded, always..."
If taken as a 'warning', and not rule or fact, both wordings are sufficient to convey the implied danger/threat of treating any gun as if it is 'unloaded'...
"All guns are loaded, always..."
If taken as a 'warning', and not rule or fact, both wordings are sufficient to convey the implied danger/threat of treating any gun as if it is 'unloaded'...
The rule does not mean that all guns are actually loaded.
It means all guns should be treated as if they are loaded, whether they are actually loaded or not.
This seems pretty obvious, but some people will argue about anything and if they can't find anything they'll make something up.
It means all guns should be treated as if they are loaded, whether they are actually loaded or not.
This seems pretty obvious, but some people will argue about anything and if they can't find anything they'll make something up.
coloradokevin
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People will argue semantics until it gives a normal person a headache. The purpose of this rule is only to say:
"Treat all firearms as if they are always loaded".
The point is to train people not to play around with a gun simply because it's unloaded, or to become careless with it because they know it's unloaded (in case they someday erroneously believe that a loaded gun is unloaded). If you train someone correctly from the beginning it reduces the likelihood of an accident down the road.
When I watch people handling firearms I can often pick up on how well they were trained in the beginning. Hand someone an unloaded gun in a room full of people (ex: gun store counter) and watch how they handle it. The careless or untrained user will usually hold the gun with their finger resting on the trigger, move the gun around sweeping other customers, and dry-firing in any old direction (often toward the employee who just handed them the unloaded gun).
The well-trained individual is equally aware of the fact that the gun is physically unloaded, but was taught to respect the danger and possibility for error that occurs when people handle tools such as these. That individual typically indexes their finger on the firearm when holding it, avoids muzzle sweeping other customers, and dry fires the firearm in a direction where they'd not hurt someone if the gun actually discharged under those circumstances.
The firearms safety rules are a good foundation for safe weapon handling tasks. They are not dogmatic law, and exceptions to the rules can exist under certain circumstances. For example, when we do force-on-force training at work we'll often use our regular patrol rifles (with a different bolt carrier group) to fire Simunitions. In that case you do end up pointing your weapon at people you don't want to shoot, but you are doing so in a VERY strictly controlled training environment, with extra safeguards in place (ex: no live ammo enters the facility, and each participant is checked by at least two non-participant instructors before entering the scenario house, etc).
"Treat all firearms as if they are always loaded".
The point is to train people not to play around with a gun simply because it's unloaded, or to become careless with it because they know it's unloaded (in case they someday erroneously believe that a loaded gun is unloaded). If you train someone correctly from the beginning it reduces the likelihood of an accident down the road.
When I watch people handling firearms I can often pick up on how well they were trained in the beginning. Hand someone an unloaded gun in a room full of people (ex: gun store counter) and watch how they handle it. The careless or untrained user will usually hold the gun with their finger resting on the trigger, move the gun around sweeping other customers, and dry-firing in any old direction (often toward the employee who just handed them the unloaded gun).
The well-trained individual is equally aware of the fact that the gun is physically unloaded, but was taught to respect the danger and possibility for error that occurs when people handle tools such as these. That individual typically indexes their finger on the firearm when holding it, avoids muzzle sweeping other customers, and dry fires the firearm in a direction where they'd not hurt someone if the gun actually discharged under those circumstances.
The firearms safety rules are a good foundation for safe weapon handling tasks. They are not dogmatic law, and exceptions to the rules can exist under certain circumstances. For example, when we do force-on-force training at work we'll often use our regular patrol rifles (with a different bolt carrier group) to fire Simunitions. In that case you do end up pointing your weapon at people you don't want to shoot, but you are doing so in a VERY strictly controlled training environment, with extra safeguards in place (ex: no live ammo enters the facility, and each participant is checked by at least two non-participant instructors before entering the scenario house, etc).
Nom de Forum
Member
Having worked in a facility containing thousands of firearms that multiple people in close proximity handled, I can assure you that all guns were not treated as always loaded. A better rule number one in that environment and others could be "All guns are treated as loaded until all persons present agree on confirmation they are not". That being said I think some people in this thread are really over-thinking the semantics of "The Rules". Both the NRA's and Cooper's are probably the most practical to use for promoting safe gun handling the can be expressed in English.
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