Best large bore for suppressed bolt action?

the 450 is interesting. Its allready threaded and it has much more capability if super sonic ammo for really big game will ever come into play. Down side is finding brass and larger cases are a bit more touchy to download. For what they cost id look hard at one though. By the time you get a 44 and have it threaded your going to be into more money. Nice thing though is brass is everywhere and loading it subsonic is a breeze. Factory bullets favor the 44 too but theres a pretty good selection of 452 bullet on the shelves too.. If you cast your own it doesn't really matter. ME? id go with the 450 but then I like thumpers.

If putting bullets where you want inside 200yds is the goal the 77/44 is right out.

I've owned two now and a 77/357 and as a handloader and bullet caster if I ever shot a 50yd group under 3" with one I don't remember it.

I have a feeling the new American rimfires and 450 came about because ruger finally decided to discontinue the turkey and expensive small framed 77's

The .450 is not ideal for subsonic use but I think it has potential. Particularly in a boltgun where we don't have to worry about cycling a gas operated action. Fluffy powders like Unique or even Trail Boss might be just the ticket.

I just can't get into the 77/44. They never seem to shoot as well as a good levergun and while the faster 1-20" twist is great, the short magazine precludes use of heavyweight cast bullets.

If I could have whatever I wanted for this application, I'd want a short/light boltgun like the 77/44 with a staggered type detachable magazine with capacities up to at least 20rds and enough length for at least a 320gr WFN, threaded 16" barrel, iron sights and resurrect either the .44Automag or .45WinMag.

The 77/44 is hard to beat. You can get decent accuracy out of them and certainly with an aftermarket barrel.

I'd look at a 460 Rowland. I have a mech tech 1911 conversion and it's flawless. You could easily load a .452, 250 grain cast bullet to right below the barrier. I'm not sure if it's a bolt gun option, but I sure like mine. Have a carbine and regular 1911. Real cheap to reload.

A descent price option may be a puma 92 lever gun. I have a .480 ruger, that launches a 400 grain hunk of lead 1250, you could load that down some. They made 480 and 454 ones for a few years. Or you can easily get a 44 mag one. I've been around the 480 and 44 ones and both were very accurate.

I'm shocked to read that the 77 in 44 mag isn't accurate. That's always been kinda on my list of stuff I wanted. All weather skeleton stock one.

Following on from the post above, how about a Marlin (or similar) in .45 Colt. I have one and have thought about having the barrel threaded a number of times. A 300gr hardcast bullet at 1,050 fps would be awesome and it wouldn't lose too much velocity at 200 yards.

i think for cost the .450 bushy in the ruger american maybe the best bet. While not perfect, its pretty good at subsonic, as Craig said especially from a bolty. Personally Id like to get one in .308 etc to try make a .458 socom out of if the .450 mag will hold socom rounds.

I've owned an integrally suppressed 77/44 for awhile now and while accuracy isn't 1/2 inch at 100 it's not bad, considering.. I can average 1.5-2.0 inch groups with just about any of my subsonic hand loads but it seems to do much better,1.0-1.5, with supersonic light rounds.. I'm pretty much sold on it and would recommend it..

How about a savage rebarreled to 358 Winchester?
Or a 45-70 Marlin.

MCMXI said:

Following on from the post above, how about a Marlin (or similar) in .45 Colt. I have one and have thought about having the barrel threaded a number of times. A 300gr hardcast bullet at 1,050 fps would be awesome and it wouldn't lose too much velocity at 200 yards.

Click to expand...

A .45Colt levergun would be great once you work around everything at the muzzle.

This is always an interesting topic for me. I know deciding it can become a bit of dilemma for many."Best" can be a bit arbitrary. let me explain..

In your opinion what would be the ideal terminal design and terminal characteristics for the bullet?
Also would those bullets work as intended at subsonic speed or subsonic doesn't matter?

I think starting with the bullet in terms of having a decent assortment including reasonable cost for practice might be a good starting point too.
Then one might find a number of casings that can launch that bullet to the desired speeds.

Also you might find a number of calibers in different bores have the same potential, some very simple and affordable and some very complex and expensive but
in the end the same results in practical terms.

Everything starts and ends with a bullet. Hopefully a good one. The rest is just the means of delivering that mail.

I am telling you this because I developed a 35 cat to improve the ballistics of the 458 and BEO over longer distances specially out to 100 yards
and beyond. So one can start with a 250gr with less power and after 50 yards have more power with much flatter trajectories unless you limit to
subsonic as the only option.

I went with the 35 based on several benefits one being the huge assortment of pistol bullets in 9mm, 357 and 358 that I can shoot from a 358 bore.
I just got a case of 3000x 200gr TMJ bullets at 13 cents a piece and not only for practice but could be used for something else should that be needed.

I also wanted something very compact. Noise is not a concern for me but that is easy to resolve with a suppressor.



I have not worked up the 250gr in the bolt action but I know there is more potential there including the pistol loads.



I think the next pistol is going to be a 1:10 twist and I am going to try some 280gr and 310gr cast bullets including subsonic.
the idea is to deliver more momentum in the target with cast that is not too hard so we will see proper activation upon impact.
one cannot do this wiht match or FMJ bullets. Even in the 375 280gr to 300gr bullets are too stout for this type of use and role
as they are normally designed for big magnums at least whelen and up type of speeds.

I think in order to achieve the maximum effect with larger bores subsonic it has to be purposed design or specialty items, therefore expensive,
or otherwise use hollow points in larger bores but those loose the most in flight. Just like shotguns.




As you know, ballistics is always a world of trade-offs. More times than not, less becomes more in the end.

Muzzle values say little about a round and bullet. IMO after the 35 and 375 calibers there is a huge decline in ballistics performance that
is why those two calibers are so popular. The question is what bullets will be suitable and effective at the desired impact speeds?

I would start there and work backwards. Sort of deciding on the "what" and "why" before we decide on the "how".

Nothing wrong with other approaches but this way might be a better way to study the case and make sure one is fully satisfied based
on one's requirements. I know simplicity and cost is a key factor in people using their calibers more.
Things that are either too complex or costly end up in the back of the safe. I have made that mistake, several times.

hopefully this will make sense.

...btw when I say ideal impact speeds we use manufacturer data for the lower speeds in the impact spectrum but
sometimes this can be too optimistic and in some cases not available so we also use feedback from other sources
as a way to determine terminal effectiveness if that is desired.
A good example is the 225gr Sierra Game king. That bullet is harder than a rock so better left out for massive penetration
or for magnums all together. The 270gr swift and 280gr woodleig PP are a little better but also on that category.
250gr hornady and speer might be a better choice for the 35 bore.

The casing choice could be as an indiana 358 hossier or even a 357 automag with .200 extra freebore and 358 barrel.

just thinking out loud here.

Legionnaire said:

If I gave up on the idea of a bolt action, what do you think about an Encore barrel in .500 S&W Magnum?

Click to expand...

I like the idea but here some other ideas just in case...

The encore is nice but the swap bug is addictive and can become expensive.

Some people do stubbed actions that achieve the same in the long run less overhead and can make a stubbed design that can work in a bolt action too
for the same barrel / caliber. H&R/NEF is a great donor for little investment. This one has some limitations regarding the widest cases and super magnums
that are better left out of the equation.




Accuracy doesn't suffer. In fact can be improved as one can tune up headspace to near perfect just like the typical Savage for example.




But in the end I like a bolt repeater, even if I single load. It is just inherently a more accurate firearm.

I am working on a take down system wiht an universal thread so I can swap between several rifles but w/o sacrificing the action although
most likely will dedicate 2 budget long actions to the project. The downsize is not a standard I can buy at Brownells but the upside it will be
more cost effective in the long time and will become my standard anyway. the idea is to also give new life to some old calibers I don't have the
actions for anymore and also introduce new cats while keeping cost down.

....even a beaten up mosin would be a cool donor for a 16" scout in 500 S&W or a 450 marlin.






... my 2 cents.

....even a beaten up mosin would be a cool donor for a 16" scout in 500 S&W or a 450 marlin.






... my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]

You have my attention. What's it take to turn a mosin into something like that?

Want.......

I think the mosin became a donor for those people who bought crates of them for $50 / pop.
It can be done with any cheap rifle given all other parameters like magazine, bolt face, etc..are a good match
for the requirement in question w/o having to reinvent the wheel that normally means more cost and headaches.

Old military firearms with rimmed cartridges are potentially great donors for calibers that fit that envelop like
mosins, British, rimmed mausers, etc...
The mosin in the pic is a 45/70.

But we also have to keep in mind some nice old civilian firearms like winchester M70, early savages and
remingtons and even modern rifle value packs for hunting season.

One can take an axis and give it new meaning either as pretty decent long range gun but also a bad
ass large bore elephant gun. The savages are great not just because of their barrel system that has
changed the market but also their exchangeable bolt heads to inexpensibly adapt to many cartriges.

In the end many of these projects start wiht a very economic rifle to keep costs down. Mosin falls in that category,
or a least it used to be that way.

I saw the other day someone bought an axis with a scope for $240 sold the scope and barrel and ended with
a $50 action. not bad.

Yea I've got a $50 mosin m44 that I sporterized. It shoots groups like a quarter at 100.
It's had some work done to it, trigger job, lots of polishing on the action and stuff. All the lugs and sights pressed off. I had intentions of powder coating it, but it's bare metal for the last 5 years.

I seriously considered getting a beater Mosin to convert to a big rimmed round, thought i might use the original case and neck it up to .358 or larger, but i never did. Now i kinda regret not grabbing a couple more mosins when i had the chance.

LoonWulf said:

I seriously considered getting a beater Mosin to convert to a big rimmed round, thought i might use the original case and neck it up to .358 or larger, but i never did. Now i kinda regret not grabbing a couple more mosins when i had the chance.

Click to expand...

Sorry @Legionnaire for deviating a bit from the originally intended purpose fo the thread.

But what about a Mauser carbine?... We better move to a new thread.

One that I've been wanting to build... Start with a short action Savage. Change the bolt face to .532". Rebarrel to .458 American. This is basically a .450 Marlin with a standard belt. So it can be cut from any belted magnum case. Load with the heaviest bullets I can find (typically 500gr.). But you could probably buy, or have a mold cut, to cast some heavier.

I'm thinking that with the heavy bullets and a 9 or 10" barrel, plus integral suppressor to get to 16", it should be possible to get the velocity subsonic without much down loading.

Wyman

JWF III said:

One that I've been wanting to build... Start with a short action Savage. Change the bolt face to .532". Rebarrel to .458 American. This is basically a .450 Marlin with a standard belt. So it can be cut from any belted magnum case. Load with the heaviest bullets I can find (typically 500gr.). But you could probably buy, or have a mold cut, to cast some heavier.

I'm thinking that with the heavy bullets and a 9 or 10" barrel, plus integral suppressor to get to 16", it should be possible to get the velocity subsonic without much down loading.

Wyman

Click to expand...

You have cast up to 720gr for the Lott.


IMO you don't need more case than the marlin but extra free bore.