Which big bore rifle/cartridge for subsonic hunting

[Catpop]

I'd consider 38-40. It's actually .401, but does that make it "big bore"?

 

[Gtscotty]

Thanks for all the great input and ideas on this project!

To be honest I've put this idea back on the back burner for now. If I was still living in GA and hunting the the thick woods and creek bottoms, I'd probably have gone forward with it. But after an honest evaluation of my style of shooting these days, I realized that most of my hunting in Wyoming is pretty well beyond the ethical range for subsonic hunting. Additionally, I've been spending most of my range time shooting at the long distance berms from 300 yds - 700 yds (280 .308 rounds in January alone).... Therefore I wound up going the total opposite direction this time and picked up a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 CM and a SWFA SS 3-15x42 mil/mil to top it off with.

I'm sure I'll go the 77/44 + suppressor route when/if I get back to the south, but for now I think I had better put my money towards the type of shooting I'm actually doing most of the time.

Not intending to put a damper on the discussion, just figured I'd post an update.

 

[CraigC]

You did accomplish one thing, you planted a seed in my head! Getting my NFA trust notarized this week. I was already doing a rimfire can but have decided I need another for this sort of thing.

 

[hq]

Sectional density is exactly what slugs have working against them. I've tested the vaunted Brenneke Black Magic and it fell well short of the penetration afforded by heavy revolver loads.

And why would you have to beat yourself up with that load to kill deer? Sorry but a three quarter inch diameter slug is just unnecessary for whitetail.

Brenneke blackwhat vaunted by whom? We're talking about ideal subsonic hunting combination now and 1000gr 12ga at 1200fps has sd comparable to 180gr .308, combined with Taylor KO-factor of well over one hundred, which is close to the best possible combination of anchoring deer-sized (and somewhat larger) game where it stands, with as little risk of a lengthy tracking endeavor as practical without breaking the sound barrier. Of course there will be some recoil, equivalent of heavy goose loads minus the reduction of felt recoil afforded by the suppressor, but I was under the impression that so-called pencil neck factor between the gunstock and the boots wasn't a part of this discussion? Not that overpenetrating hard cast handgun bullets, vanishing hydrodynamic shock, supersonic factory slugs or a few other subjects were either...

 

[CraigC]

1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps is ideal for deer??? Now we've entered The Twilight Zone.

 

[hq]

1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps is ideal for deer??? Now we've entered The Twilight Zone.

I rather prefer it to the X-Files of nonexistent hydrodynamic shock conspiracy and Blazing Saddles of world-penetrating 250gr hard casts, but it's safe to say that this conversation is well past its best before -date. Before the level of artificial frugality of "need" descends to the level of straw slippers and a sharp stick in a quest to rid the world of even a single unnecessary ft-lb of muzzle energy, I find it appropriate to bow to the audience and step off the soap box.

But, to conclude the actual subject at hand, yes. It's absolutely ideal.

 

[MaxP]

We are talking whitetail here, aren't we? How did 12 gauge slugs enter the discussion if I may ask?

 

[hq]

We are talking whitetail here, aren't we? How did 12 gauge slugs enter the discussion if I may ask?

As the ultimate big bore, subsonic and suppressed solution for downing medium (and some big) game of your choice while minimizing the chance of just wounding anything. I'd poetically call it the Hammer of God of the subsonic hunting cartridges in easily portable gun platforms. A non-suppressed semiauto shotgun with supersonic slugs - preferably handloads - being my #1 choice for stalking whitetail. So far the average flight distance has been one (1) step, out of what has been up to seven filled tags on better weekends. Being too old/lazy/crippled/etc. to track wounded game through a couple of area codes after tickling it with a peashooter makes the choice pretty obvious... It. Just. Works.

 

[hq]

Oops. I almost forgot. "Pics or it didn't happen!!!" -principle regarding the seven-a-weekend claim.

How about eight or nine a day instead? Here are some from a couple of (venison) hunts on consecutive weekends a while back. IIRC the total between 8 hunters was about 42 whitetails that afternoon.

[because this is the rifle section: gore alert... if someone's sensitive to seeing blood, please press "back" button instead of scrolling down]

 

[Gtscotty]

That's a pretty sizeable stack of deer, were they taken with the aforementioned suppressed 12 ga? I honestly didn't know yall had whitetail over there.

 

[hq]

That's a pretty sizeable stack of deer, were they taken with the aforementioned suppressed 12 ga? I honestly didn't know yall had whitetail over there.

An introduced species. Their population is in tens of thousands nowadays. Like I mentioned in my previous post, non-suppressed semiauto 12ga and supersonic slugs for stalking. Three or four of those were shot from a treestand with a rifle at dusk.

My only shotgun with a suppressor so far is a SPAS12, which, having an externally threaded barrel, has been a proof of concept for the fully suppressed shotgun project. Screw-on suppressors make even short barreled shotguns impractically long and front-heavy for hunting so a 11-12" barrel integrated into a 20-22 x 3" reflex-type suppressor utilizing gas relief holes will provide sufficient expansion volume, moderate muzzle velocity venting some of gases to primary expansion chamber mid-barrel, yet being compact enough to carry.

 

[CraigC]

I reckon if one can't be bothered with a ~50yd tracking job, then a 1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps is probably a good choice.

 

[hq]

I reckon if one can't be bothered with a ~50yd tracking job, then a 1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps is probably a good choice.

I honestly can't call a person who intentionally chooses even 50 yards of tracking instead of a considerably more probable DRT by the choice of equipment a hunter. I wouldn't imagine anyone with the slightest sense of ethics enjoying that, much less advertising and belittling it on a public forum. But then again, who am I to judge anyone so it's better left at that.

 

[CraigC]

Then I reckon we should all hunt deer with 20mm cannons?

Hunting with bows, handguns, muzzleloaders and normal deer cartridges should be outlawed???

Do you not realize how ridiculous this line of thought is?

 

[Gtscotty]

I honestly can't call a person who intentionally chooses even 50 yards of tracking instead of a considerably more probable DRT by the choice of equipment a hunter. I wouldn't imagine anyone with the slightest sense of ethics enjoying that, much less advertising and belittling it on a public forum. But then again, who am I to judge anyone so it's better left at that.

Now this is just getting absurd, your definition of "hunter" wouldn't include any of the many, many upstanding and ethical hunters that use a bow or pistol during rifle season as neither of those options are as likely to result in DRT as a high powered rifle. Also, anyone hunting with big bore rifle/pistol subs would fall short of your approval, as they too are not as likely to drop game in their tracks as a high powered rifle. Save the ethical condemnations for another thread, this thread was for equipment ideas and experiences.

 

[hq]

Now this is just getting absurd, your definition of "hunter" wouldn't include any of the many, many upstanding and ethical hunters that use a bow or pistol during rifle season

That's not what I said. Like one wouldn't go bowhunting with a target tip instead of a broadhead, go goose hunting with a .410 instead of 12GA or go handgun hunting big game with a .38Spl instead of .44Mag, there's definitely a code of using rather something that can easily nitpicked as overkill instead of what has plenty of power margin, within the scope of the hunting discipline one wishes to participate in. If I remember correctly, earlier in this thread I already repeated one of the oldest and most profound recommendations in hunting: use enough gun. As long as no such thing as a perfect shooter who never misses even an inch from the perfect point of aim exists, it's absolutely valid.

Additionally, hunting season or part thereof limited to one type of weapon is unheard of in the majority of the world.

 

[hq]

Then I reckon we should all hunt deer with 20mm cannons?

I shouldn't even reply to this kind of lowball, but I really have to question whether - in your book - 16% more muzzle energy than the venerable .30-06 is really a valid excuse to making (literally) a light artillery reference? Not that logic and reason were ever overrated, but at this level of sheer and unadulterated ridiculousness of an argument I have to ask.

 

[CraigC]

Ridiculousness is exactly what you introduced into this thread with your 1000gr slug at 1200fps nonsense, as well as your crack about "tickling it with a peashooter". I am only responding in kind. Do you not understand that such a load would be considered quite sufficient for Cape buffalo?

Like one wouldn't go bowhunting with a target tip instead of a broadhead, go goose hunting with a .410 instead of 12GA or go handgun hunting big game with a .38Spl instead of .44Mag, there's definitely a code of using rather something that can easily nitpicked as overkill instead of what has plenty of power margin, within the scope of the hunting discipline one wishes to participate in.

No, by your logic, one couldn't hunt with a bow or handgun at all and be considered "ethical".

 

[Gtscotty]

That's not what I said. Like one wouldn't go bowhunting with a target tip instead of a broadhead, go goose hunting with a .410 instead of 12GA or go handgun hunting big game with a .38Spl instead of .44Mag, there's definitely a code of using rather something that can easily nitpicked as overkill instead of what has plenty of power margin, within the scope of the hunting discipline one wishes to participate in. If I remember correctly, earlier in this thread I already repeated one of the oldest and most profound recommendations in hunting: use enough gun. As long as no such thing as a perfect shooter who never misses even an inch from the perfect point of aim exists, it's absolutely valid.

Additionally, hunting season or part thereof limited to one type of weapon is unheard of in the majority of the world.

It may not have been what you meant, but it is what you said:

I honestly can't call a person who intentionally chooses even 50 yards of tracking instead of a considerably more probable DRT by the choice of equipment a hunter.

The most logical interpretation of that would include all of the examples i stated, as they all provide considerably less chance of a DRT kill than a high velocity rifle.

Regardless, if I get a subsonic suppressed hunting setup, it is far more likely to be a .44 or a .45 than a suppressed shotgun, mostly due to cost and the level of desired suppression. I don't mind a short tracking job as long as I've got a good 2-hole blood trail.

 

[hq]

The most logical interpretation of that would include all of the examples i stated, as they all provide considerably less chance of a DRT kill than a high velocity rifle.

Which is the exact reason why absolutely and positively all advantages, such as the weight, diameter and expansion characteristics of a bullet should be utilized in order to keep hunting with subsonic rounds as ethical as humanly possible.

In a thread about big bore suppressed hunting that fact is bound to surface at some point. And it shouldn't really be a surprise that it did.

 

[hq]

No, by your logic, one couldn't hunt with a bow or handgun at all and be considered "ethical".

Your claim, not mine. How about sticking to facts or admitting that the last half a dozen or so "arguments" you've brought into this conversation have absolutely no substance at all? That's the least that should be expected in a forum called "The High Road" where everyone is expected to act accordingly.

As far as utterly ignorant claims are concerned, have you met or been a client of many PH:s willing to take a client to a cape buffalo hunt with a <3200lbsft gun?

 

[hq]

Oh, yeah, the "pics or it didn't..." -principle once again. This is a (very hasty) picture of last time when I've had a staring contest with a cape buffalo. Having practised to hold spare cartridges in left hand pays off with operating a camera too.

Eventually it lost. And not by far to a bullet with even close to as little 3200lbsft of muzzle energy.

You know, being the only one to substantiate his claims, not to deviate to anything from ignoring basic laws of physics to cannons to hunting cape buffalo with a shotgun (SIC!) and to post even individual pics from an unorganized archive of thousands is getting a bit old now...

 

[Gtscotty]

Oh, yeah, the "pics or it didn't..." -principle once again. This is a (very hasty) picture of last time when I've had a staring contest with a cape buffalo. Having practised to hold spare cartridges in left hand pays off with operating a camera too.

Eventually it lost. And not by far to a bullet with even close to as little 3200lbsft of muzzle energy.

You know, being the only one to substantiate his claims, not to deviate to anything from ignoring basic laws of physics to cannons to hunting cape buffalo with a shotgun (SIC!) and to post even individual pics from an unorganized archive of thousands is getting a bit old now...

Interesting picture, but I guess I don't know what claims you are substantiating, was that buffalo killed with a large bore subsonic? If not let's reel in the de-rails and get back on the thread topic.

 

[CraigC]

Muzzle energy??? About the worst possible means of measuring or estimating the effectiveness of a cartridge. You should know better than that. If a subsonic big bore and a high velocity small bore can both kill the same size critters deader than fried chicken, all the while producing vastly divergent levels of kinetic energy, that should tell you that energy tells us nothing meaningful.

You do understand that Cape buffalo and similarly sized bovine are easily dispatched with properly loaded handguns, right? A good hard cast bullet in the SD range of ~.250 -.270 (360gr .45/330gr .44/430gr .475/440gr .500) at 1200fps will penetrate several feet of buffalo. Which would include your 1000gr slug at 1200fps. You've addressed me with much condescension but it appears I lent you more credibility than was prudent.

...ignoring basic laws of physics

Terminal ballistics are so far removed from anything resembling "basic laws of physics" that I know anyone making such a reference in a discussion of this nature has very little actual understanding of the subject.

 

[hq]

Muzzle energy??? About the worst possible means of meas[clippetysnip]

Sigh.

Yet the second most common yardstick in the world after bullet diameter determining the minimum requirements for legally hunting different types of game.

Now that you're at it and seem to have repeatedly ignored facts I've stated, including casting and turning an extremely rapidly expanding hollow point slug from soft lead because of obvious penetration vs. wound cavity issues I've already addressed twice, let's hear what kind of first hand experience you have of the subject at hand.

I'd like to hear more about your cape buffalos you brought up, especially hunting them with slugs you claimed to be a proper choice for the task. How many of them have you personally shot, with what kind of rifles, handguns and shotguns? How about pachyderms? Let's set the minimum weight at, say, 3500lbs so you hopefully won't exhaust yourself too much listing all, not to doubt at all that majority of yours will surely exceed that. For reference, a ballpark number of whitetails and other medium/big game you've shot with handloaded slugs might be interesting to know, to get a picture of your apparent vast knowledge and experience on the subject.

It'd also be informative to hear some basic information of lead alloys you've used to cast slugs, including their linotype content (remember to keep the room ventilated and wear a proper respirator from now on) and the component combination if not exact load and chrony data of at least three or four of your favorite loads. Suppressed SPL and ballistic gel figures would be a nice touch too, to keep this in context of subsonic big bore hunting. What type of rifling do you have in your slug shotguns or do you use smoothbores and chokes exclusively?

You present yourself as such an expert on the subject that you must have something better and more relevant to say than this constant speculation with excuses that you seem to repeat post after post regardless of how many times the facts and details are explained to you. It's quite astonishing to see you complaining about the insufficient penetration of factory slugs (true but irrelevant), hard cast slugs (where on earth did you get that?), "my" hunting slugs penetrating several feet of tissue (literacy seems overrated), "dispatching" literally the most fatal dangerous game on the planet with a slug shotgun (don't even think about it, I'm too much of a philanthropist to hear you got a Darwin Award), comparing <3200lbsft to a ~40.000lbsft artillery piece (self-explanatory), claiming secondary wound channel being meaningless (self-explanatory) and so on.

NONE of which have anything to do with the actual load in question. Unless you count your own imagination as factual reality.

Not that the playstation generation of all things virtual isn't confident they know everything about anything they've never even tried in practise themselves, or distort clearly expressed facts in order to desperately have something - anything - to say. If ballistic gel is something you've only seen on Mythbusters, shotshell handloading equipment strange-looking items you've seen on Midway web page, CNC'ing custom bullet molds that some old gits' stuff that vaguely resembles your shiny new 3D printer, hunting big, dangerous game a sport you've become an expert on your smartphone app and designing and building suppressors something that magicians do for you in a top secret facility once you've paid a tax stamp, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SAY IT AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

Catch my drift? Now it's your time to shine, so let's hear your first-hand real life experience on this subject. All detailed data is very welcome, of course, and if you ask very politely, I might even share mine, complete with terminal ballistic figures too.