Which big bore rifle/cartridge for subsonic hunting

[hq]

Interesting picture, but I guess I don't know what claims you are substantiating, was that buffalo killed with a large bore subsonic? If not let's reel in the de-rails and get back on the thread topic.

Heavens, no! Hunting cape buffalo with subsonics was CraigC's latest hallucination, which was ridiculous enough by itself but warranted a response based on first-hand experience.

Getting back to the topic is a great idea. As long as relevant, posted factors and facts aren't distorted on purpose this has a great chance to become a quite useful and interesting thread.

 

[hq]

I'm betting this gets locked

You may be right. It's a bit sad when all it really needs is some pruning. Being limited by projectile velocity is a very interesting subject, especially in regard to different ways of compensating it. It's interesting that so many people are actually sending in the paperwork to purchase suppressors and using them for hunting. Demystifying them is long overdue, to guns they're just the same thing as mufflers are to cars and when you've kept buying them over the counter and building them for anything from rifles to shotguns to handguns since you were 15, developing subsonic loads for various purposes and used them more or less on a daily basis, they feel like a natural part of almost any firearm.

Every time I bring my US buddies to hunt here, they're thrilled that their loaner rifles are suppressed and take a bunch of photos. I hope that'll change, sooner or later.

 

[CraigC]

Not that the playstation generation of all things virtual isn't confident they know everything about anything they've never even tried in practise themselves, or distort clearly expressed facts in order to desperately have something - anything - to say. If ballistic gel is something you've only seen on Mythbusters, shotshell handloading equipment strange-looking items you've seen on Midway web page, CNC'ing custom bullet molds that some old gits' stuff that vaguely resembles your shiny new 3D printer, hunting big, dangerous game a sport you've become an expert on your smartphone app and designing and building suppressors something that magicians do for you in a top secret facility once you've paid a tax stamp, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SAY IT AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

If that's what you need to believe, I'll leave you to your foot pounds and deer cannons. The absurdity has reached toxic levels.

And leave a link to some big rifles and a suggestion to look at what the 8 bore rifle was/is capable of. A 1200gr slug at 1500fps is not too far off your 1000gr at 1200fps deer cannon. That is, unless you believe in energy.

 

[MaxP]

Wow, I guess I've been doing things wrong for a lot of years. It's amazing what one learns on the internet.

hq, I'm not sure how much hunting you can do in the offseason, but one advantage to living in the American southeast is the large population of wild hogs we have and the subsequent lack of limits and seasons associated with them. So, we get to hunt a lot all year round. One thing I have learned over the years is that each and every animal is a law unto itself. Some run, some drop and twitch, some act as if not hit, as the signal that they are dead has somehow not reached their brain. To somehow suggest that a whitetail -- or any animal for that matter -- that runs 50 yards before piling up is somehow not hit well or hit by an "inadequate" cartridge suggests inexperience to me.

Muzzle energy, that magic number that is calculated (not measurable mind you) that supposedly reveals the properties of one's loads, is of little use to me. Pure marketing ploy in my humble opinion and a very poor measure of lethality. I am almost exclusively a handgun hunter and when your chosen sidearm "generates" (actually, calculates is more accurate a term) well under what is considered by some a minimum for much African game, you learn to accept the fact that those numbers don't reveal much. I have killed water buffalo in the 2,000-lb range with the "inferior ballistics," quite convincingly, and am only glad that most bovines don't read well or they might find out on these forums that they shouldn't be dead.

 

[murf]

well said, maxp. we don't want "them" to outlaw archery season for lack of energy.

murf

p.s. glad you have thick skin, hq, wouldn't want you to run off. you have a rather eloquent way of describing reality!

 

[hq]

If that's what you need to believe, I'll leave you to your foot pounds and deer cannons. The absurdity has reached toxic levels.

I wholeheartedly agree. To be completely honest, I never even expected to see an explanation what 20mm cannons, hard cast bullets and factory ammunition have to do with custom subsonic, soft lead, hollow point handloads. Nor did I expect yet another, to quote your term, absurdity to add to the long list either, in form of a round exceeding the muzzle energy (and momentum, and TKO) of full-blown .458 Lott and even the legendary elephant gun, .500 Nitro Express, as not being "too far off" from that of factory .30-06 loads. It is far off. It's way off. And on top of that it has absolutely, positively nothing to do with the topic of modern day subsonic big bore hunting loads.

Don't take this in a wrong way, but when there's a conversation going on about a particular subject, please give some thought whether voicing your opinion with a digressing and off-topic comparison has any intellectual and, more importantly, relevant content that can actually help people make decisions. Especially when the subject is slightly unusual and greatly contributes to solving the most difficult issue of the whole topic of subsonic hunting, ie. lack of projectile energy and momentum at the target. Or Taylor KO factor I've mentioned earlier in this context numerous times, in this thread too.

And, murf: I probably have one of the thickest skins around. When you're rarely countered with relevant facts and whenever you're wrong don't hesitate to admit it right away, it isn't even difficult. Winston Churchill once stated that you will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks, to which I occasionally am a breathing, living corollary. Lots of destinations reached while throwing plenty of stones along the way.

 

[CraigC]

Don't take this in a wrong way, but when there's a conversation going on about a particular subject, please give some thought whether voicing your opinion with a digressing and off-topic comparison has any intellectual and, more importantly, relevant content that can actually help people make decisions.

Oh the irony. Because that is exactly what you did with this nonsense about a 1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps, for friggin' deer. Which is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that you need such a cannon for killing deer, not to mention the recoil aspect. Sure, you can do it but you're beating yourself up for nothing. You had a lot to offer this discussion, up to that point.

Yeah, a friggin' 1000gr 12ga slug at 1200fps would make dandy bovine medicine, regardless of what you think kinetic energy tells you.

Then you made judgements about people using weapons that may not put every deer down on the spot. Which is a broad indictment against anyone hunting with a bow, crossbow, revolver or traditional muzzleloader.

All mingled in with a lot of nonsense, like the above post. That's what happens when you talk AT people from a position of self-appointed superiority.

And I'd love to know what handguns and loads you've hunted with to refer to shooting deer with a 250gr at 900fps as "tickling them".

 

[hq]

I am almost exclusively a handgun hunter and when your chosen sidearm "generates" (actually, calculates is more accurate a term) well under what is considered by some a minimum for much African game, you learn to accept the fact that those numbers don't reveal much. I have killed water buffalo in the 2,000-lb range with the "inferior ballistics," quite convincingly, and am only glad that most bovines don't read well or they might find out on these forums that they shouldn't be dead.

I'll have to remind you that "superior" doesn't imply anything else is, or even might be inferior. Bison was almost wiped out from the face of the earth with black power loads, mainly old school .45-70. Back in the 1950's WWII parabellum, often in 7.65x21mm was a common hunting pistol for game of any size, including moose (which drove legislators to pass a very stringent hunting legislation for the time). Even Mossad has regarded .22lr as lethal against human targets for quite some time.

It's not about doing something. It's about overdoing it in a very practical manner, without drawbacks to speak of. If they are equivalent to bothering to learn how to reload shotshells and developing your own specialty loads, spending fifteen bucks on the latest edition of "Slug Loading Manual", a couple of hundred more on Lee Load-All 2 press, slug molds, casting equipment and shells/primers/powder, it's a matter of bothering to do it in the first place. Handloading isn't for everybody but as we all know, it opens a world of possibilities that otherwise aren't catered for by the market.

Like I've mentioned elsewhere, .45ACP, .44Spl and some other heavy(ish), already subsonic factory loads are the easiest way for a careful hunter to take suppressed yet ethical close range shots at medium game. 12" of penetration and large diameter wound channel works great.

When you multiply the projectile weight by four, expanded wound channel diameter by three and penetration by 1.5, you get massively more killing power. To the tune of creating a primary wound channel - the most crucial factor in terminal factor once hydrodynamic shock is very limited - of well over an inch. Overall terminal ballistic performance is close to some 7mm/.30 magnums and there's an abundance of momentum, all/most of which is transferred to the target.

What's not to like. It's not a howitzer or a vehicle-mounted relic, it's just a normally recoiling, very quiet shotgun that's light enough to carry on field for extended periods of time. In my book, according to simple physical facts and a first-hand proof of concept with an externally suppressed shotgun, it's the ultimate suppressed weapon for big game hunting. And smaller game too for targets of opportunity, or even on purpose. "Too much" power for someone's personal taste or preference? Cast a lighter slug, problem solved. It carries and shoots just as well as a subsonic smaller caliber rifle, with no practical downsides.

 

[hq]

Which is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that you need

May I politely remind you that all along it has been you who has brought the term "need" in this conversation and, in vain, ad nauseum, tried to put that in my mouth. I'd suggest you stand behind your own words for a change, rather than blaming someone else for the, admittedly ridiculous, implications these words carry.