Now I've seen everything... Krag pistol

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The Exemplar on the ATF site sure looks an awful lot like the specialty pistol pictured above, doesn’t it? And what’s that circled part point out here? This NFA “firearm” type is a weapon made from a rifle having a barrel less than 16” and overall length less than 26”. Sure looks familiar...

64657D0C-C315-4638-A231-026699842889.jpeg
 
In your 8 years as an SOT, how many specialty bolt action pistols have you made which would meet the classification of a weapon made from a rifle, not an SBR? It remains to be a human institution, but that has been my advice by the agents helping me Form 1 a couple Rem 700’s.

The instructions, as I cited above, from Page 4 of the ATF Form 1. Item 4 in the Definitions section, Firearms sub-section, circled below.

ATF Form 1

View attachment 841288
ZERO, because a bolt action pistol made from a rifle is not a pistol.....it's a short barreled rifle.
AGAIN, you are not reading the definition for SBR, but the definition for NFA "firearm".
 
Nowhere did I EVER say a specialty pistol is a short barreled rifle, because it isn’t one, so reading the definition of short barreled rifle doesn’t apply.
 
The Exemplar on the ATF site sure looks an awful lot like the specialty pistol pictured above, doesn’t it? And what’s that circled part point out here? This NFA “firearm” type is a weapon made from a rifle having a barrel less than 16” and overall length less than 26”. Sure looks familiar...
Well no kidding.
An NFA "firearm" can be an SBR, SBS, machine gun, silencer, DD.
The "weapon made from a rifle" is the type of NFA firearm called a short barreled rifle.
 
Nowhere did I EVER say a specialty pistol is a short barreled rifle, because it isn’t one, so reading the definition of short barreled rifle doesn’t apply.
"Specialty pistol" is not a term used in any Federal law/ATF regulation.
If your specialty pistol meets the definition of an SBR...…..it is one.
 
Reading must be very difficult for you.

If an action - the action itself, leaves Remington assembled as a rifle, which is what I said above, then it has to become an NFA item to be converted to a specialty pistol. If it’s over 26” total, I have been told to list them as an SBR, despite lacking a buttstock. Under 26”, I was instructed to list as a WMfaR.
It's an SBR either way.


If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, it can be a specialty pistol or a rifle. Which is what I said above.
No Federal law defines anything as a "specialty pistol".....you are inventing your own language.


If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, but is first chambered and stocked as a rifle by the owner, the standing advice I have been given, which is berated at length about AR-15’s and was such with TC Encores many years ago, the action could no longer be reconfigured into a pistol.
No one disputes that.

I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, that you were engrossed so deeply in your chest thumping tirade that you couldn’t understand when I said “the action left the factory as a rifle,” I meant “left the factory assembled into a complete rifle.” Because everything you “corrected” about my statement is exactly the same as I stated.
words matter, and yours were in error.

So either you can’t read, or you’re one of those SOT’s who doesn’t understand as much about NFA items outside of the products they sell as they think they do.
Yet you believe in "specialty pistols"...….where did you read that?
 
You should read that.
Firearm receivers are not pistol receivers or rifle receivers.....as you've described above.

You can’t understand plain English, and apparently can’t get over the fact I said “an action left the factory as a rifle” and can’t understand that meant ASSEMBLED AS A COMPLETE RIFLE.

Never do I say, here, above, or anywhere, that firearm receivers are rifle or pistol receivers by any virtue of their own. Quite the contrary, I have spelled out the fact how they are assembled defines them, and spelled out how taking two different roads to the same configuration might be legal in one route, and not in another.

We have BOTH said above, it is the assembly of the bare action/receiver which defines the classification.

What you do not seem to grasp, in your TINY LITTE WORLD, is Item 4 is included in the definition of an NFA firearm, just as much as Item 3. Item 3 describes a rifle with barrels less than 16”, aka, an SBR.

Item 4, directly subsequent, describes a weapon made from a rifle with barrels less than 16” and an overall length of less than 26”. A bolt action “specialty pistol” with a barrel less than 16”, made from a rifle, such as the Krag in this post, or my own Rem 700’s, is not a pistol, despite looking like one. It is also NOT an SBR, as a rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, which these bolt action handguns are not, and may have a length under 26”.

If it were NOT made from an assembled rifle, but rather offered in that configuration from factory, or built from an action which had never been assembled into ANY configuration, then it WOULD be a Title 1 pistol. The Remington XP100, Savage Striker, and Nosler NCR are examples of this. But replicating such a specialty pistol with an action which was first assembled as a rifle does NOT make a pistol, despite looking like one. It creates an NFA Firearm, in this case, listed as a Weapon Made from a Rifle.

So no, you are not correct that all NFA firearms with short barrels are ONLY SBR’s. If the length is less than 26” and there is no provision to be fired from the shoulder, it’s a WMfaR, not an SBR. I can appreciate there aren’t many of us specialty pistol shooters, and that there’s seldom any sense in creating a specialty pistol from an assembled rifle, creating an NFA Firearm, rather than simply starting with a bare action. But it doesn’t change the fact, you’re absolutely ignoring all of the ATF documentation provided above.
 
Yet you believe in "specialty pistols"...….where did you read that?

Specialty pistols IS a common term used to describe bolt action pistols like the Remington XP100, Savage Striker, or Nosler NCH, and often break action pistols like the Encore/Contender, or alternative design single shots like the Pachmayr Dominator, or Magnum Research Lone Eagle. Maybe if you got out of your own way every now and then, you’d have experienced one.
 
You can’t understand plain English, and apparently can’t get over the fact I said “an action left the factory as a rifle” and can’t understand that meant ASSEMBLED AS A COMPLETE RIFLE..
I can only comment on what you wrote....and much of that has been gibberish. If you meant "ASSEMBLED AS A COMPLETE RIFLE" you should have written that.



Never do I say, here, above, or anywhere, that firearm receivers are rifle or pistol receivers by any virtue of their own. Quite the contrary, I have spelled out the fact how they are assembled defines them, and spelled out how taking two different roads to the same configuration might be legal in one route, and not in another.
Yet you wrote: "If an an action starts as a rifle, the first time it is stocked and chambered, it can never be a pistol (other than “kits” like the Encore which are so designated in their transfers). But an action which starts as a pistol can be a pistol or a rifle, and back and forth..."
"Actions" don't start as anything but an action/receiver/frame.



We have BOTH said above, it is the assembly of the bare action/receiver which defines the classification.
Actions/receivers/frames/lowers ALREADY ARE firearms.


What you do not seem to grasp, in your TINY LITTE WORLD, is Item 4 is included in the definition of an NFA firearm, just as much as Item 3. Item 3 describes a rifle with barrels less than 16”, aka, an SBR.
Oh I grasp what you think it says, what you don't grasp is every "Weapon made from a rifle" IS also an SBR......how's your tinier littler world?



Item 4, directly subsequent, describes a weapon made from a rifle with barrels less than 16” and an overall length of less than 26”. A bolt action “specialty pistol” with a barrel less than 16”, made from a rifle, such as the Krag in this post, or my own Rem 700’s, is not a pistol, despite looking like one. It is also NOT an SBR, as a rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, which these bolt action handguns are not, and may have a length under 26”.
Now, where in this definition does it say an SBR has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder?
Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Hmmmm…..it does not.
Plenty of people will make a Form 1 SBR from an existing handgun.....and there is no requirement to have a shoulder stock.
Once again, read the definition of Short Barreled Rifle.



If it were NOT made from an assembled rifle, but rather offered in that configuration from factory, or built from an action which had never been assembled into ANY configuration, then it WOULD be a Title 1 pistol. The Remington XP100, Savage Striker, and Nosler NCR are examples of this. But replicating such a specialty pistol with an action which was first assembled as a rifle does NOT make a pistol, despite looking like one. It creates an NFA Firearm, in this case, listed as a Weapon Made from a Rifle.
A "Weapon made from a rifle" is by definition......an SBR.
ONCE AGAIN:
Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

So no, you are not correct that all NFA firearms with short barrels are ONLY SBR’s. If the length is less than 26” and there is no provision to be fired from the shoulder, it’s a WMfaR, not an SBR.
Well wrong.
Read the definition of Short Barreled Rifle above. All WMFAR are SBR's, but not all SBR's have to have been made from a rifle.
Any Title 1 pistol can be made into an SBR via a Form 1 AND NEVER HAVE HAD A SHOULDER STOCK. :what:



I can appreciate there aren’t many of us specialty pistol shooters, and that there’s seldom any sense in creating a specialty pistol from an assembled rifle, creating an NFA Firearm, rather than simply starting with a bare action. But it doesn’t change the fact, you’re absolutely ignoring all of the ATF documentation provided above
I'm not ignoring anything. But you are ignoring the simple fact that your "weapon made from a rifle" IS AN SBR!
Again.....Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.:rofl:
 
The definition of a short barreled rifle specifically states it is... you guessed it, a rifle.... and the definition of a rifle includes that it is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

I’ve heard your BS about ATF agents not knowing their job, at least not as well as you, but I will say, I take their word for it far above yours, and when they’ve instructed my Form 1’s to be listed according to item 4, referencing the photograph from their own web page above, I follow their guidance, and ignore fools like you.

Go live your life. I’m done with your foolishness. You’re wrong about the difference in a short barreled rifle and a weapon made from a rifle. You’re probably the guy jumping stiff legged that the Shockwave is an SBS.

For others, the evidence is in front of you. Call the ATF for yourself when you choose to build your own bolt action handguns from Title 1 rifles, and ask for your own clarifications as to what to use on your Form 1’s.
 
The definition of a short barreled rifle specifically states it is... you guessed it, a rifle.... and the definition of a rifle includes that it is designed to be fired from the shoulder.
So now you are arguing that an SBR must only be designed to be fired from the shoulder?
That is clearly wrong. Your posts get dumber and dumber.
Sir, The definition of SBR is the definition of SBR....it is not the same definition as a Title 1 "Rifle".


I’ve heard your BS about ATF agents not knowing their job, at least not as well as you, but I will say, I take their word for it far above yours, and when they’ve instructed my Form 1’s to be listed according to item 4, referencing the photograph from their own web page above, I follow their guidance, and ignore fools like you.
I'm not the fool that can't accept that his WMFAR is also an SBR. Even when presented with the definition from ATF you're still clinging to hearsay and pictures on a website.
If you read Federal law and ATF regulations you educate yourself. Looking at FAQ's or pictures is not the same as Federal law or ATF regulations.

Go live your life. I’m done with your foolishness.
Well bye.

You’re wrong about the difference in a short barreled rifle and a weapon made from a rifle.
Really?
Then show us the definition in Federal law or ATF regulations for "Weapon Made From a Rifle".....not a picture, not a paragraph from the NFA Handbook.....the legal definition.



You’re probably the guy jumping stiff legged that the Shockwave is an SBS.
Nope. But nice try at obfuscation and deflection.

For others, the evidence is in front of you. Call the ATF for yourself when you choose to build your own bolt action handguns from Title 1 rifles, and ask for your own clarifications as to what to use on your Form 1’s.
Yeah, or just read the definition of "SBR".:rofl:
 
Varminterror……...please explain why this is wrong:
Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
 
As for the OP... I wouldn’t ever do a form 1 and ruin the gun myself. But if I saw that sitting at a shop, I’d be all in on a form 4. Specially as cool looking (and well done) as that one.

As for the rest of the bantering in this thread, I’ll leave it at this... ATF has said “once a rifle, always a rifle”. With that said, if it left the factory as a rifle, barrel 16”+ = rifle, barrel <16” =sbr. It doesn’t matter if there is a stock or not, it’s still an sbr on paper and to the ATF.

Wyman

ETA- SCOTUS ruling on the T/C is an exception to their rule. But has nothing to do with this.
 
Well that gun is almost as interesting as the conversation it’s generated. Lots of red text and capital letters.......

Either way, I’d enjoy trying it out. I like oddities.
 
Wasn’t there something in the GCA of 1968 that stated post 1898. Could this fall into an antique catagory if it was made in 1892- 1897 as some Krags were?
Please correct me if I’m wrong!!!!! The older I get the more confused I get!
“I’m confused- no wait maybe I’m not!”:rofl:
 
reason to expect such a skilled and knowledgeable maker would be totally ignorant of the laws by which he lives.

It happens.
A gunzine article once featured a delightful pump action pistol made from an 1890 Winchester. It was confiscated when shown to ATF because it did not have PRIOR approval.
There are some number of such cutdowns out there, many quite well done without government involvement. I bet the op is one such.
 
My head hurts... too bad this turned into a pissing contest.

I’d like to know more about the conversions; accuracy, power, cost, loads that work, etc. If anyone has any of that info please add it. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
I doubt there are many sawn off Krags out there, but there has been a fair amount of work with bolt action "pistols" on Remington actions in IHMSA.
 
Call me odd, but I want a 7600 Remington made into a pistol.
For deer hunting.
Explicitly states SBR is not legal for deer here.
But a WMFaR is not an SBR :)
Still cost 200 bucks to the Feds and wait before build.....but how freakin' cool.
Free floated bbl, pump action, mag fed..........am thinking .243.
 
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