For arguments sake, let's say each cartridge pushes the heaviest bullet at 2900 fps.
Cartridge don't really matter much. Round balls loaded with a scoop of powder and loaded from the muzzle did just fine killing animals for hundreds of years. Arguing over which cartridge is better is just a load of nonsense.
Another post conflating caliber with cartridge.
I really expect better here.
I agree almost 99%, I would say more like 95% shot placement. You can have perfect shot placement, but if the projectile is unable to make good penetration, you may not get your needed kill. (Let’s assume we are trying to make a kill rather then injur). An example of this... is someone wearing body armor, or a thick skinned animal. A .22lr isn’t going to penetrate an elephant very well, or the skull of many animals, or of body armor.
So power of the bullet being fired can make a lot of difference in some cases. Although in human to human firearm combat without body armor, and other objects in the way. Any caliber/cartridge can get a human kill with proper shot placement.
I think IMHO most people think most not about what caliber/cartridge will make the best kill, but also consider other factors, such as noise, cost, and even collateral damage, as well as limiting the damage to our “kill”. Especially if we are hunting for food. Kinda pointless to hunt squirrels with a 50bmg if you want to have roasted squirrel for dinner!
Caliber/cartridge should be associated with what you wish to hunt and it’s purpose. If I want to eat squirrel, almost anything over a 22lr or 22mag would be over kill. If your killing them as a pest, it won’t matter if use a 50bmg, other than it’s expensive, and collateral damage could make it dangerous. Even any version of the 30 caliber range would be overkill, as well as even a 223. Including the possibility of collateral damage.
You are also correct though in many pointless forum discussions on comparing caliber uses. Lol
Those could arguable be considered specialized roles though. For the vast majority of us, hunting is mostly deer, maybe black bear or hogs, and the occasional elk. Defense is probably going to be limited to a couple tweakers that end up as a stain in the hallway because they manage to get between you and your kids. Body armor or really big and dangerous game is few and far between for most of us.
I've seen deer shot similarly at similar ranges with 10mm Auto, 5.56, .243, .308/.30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and .338 RUM. Most of us would agree that on paper, there is a world of difference between the 5.56 and the .338 RUM. But in my experience, the results were about the same. Deer runs 40 to 60 yards and piles up. Maybe over a larger sample size, one would start to see a little more difference emerge in the length of time the deer were able to stay on their feet after being shot, and for sure when one field dresses the animal, the difference in the damage to internal organs seems dramatic. Larger and more powerful calibers probably give you more effective range, and maybe provide a little bit more margin for error and more options for shot presentation. I get that. But for the average hunter taking the majority of their game inside 100 yards, there just isn't that much difference. If you put a 62 gr Barnes TSX from a 16 inch barreled AR-15 behind the shoulder of a deer, it dies. Most rounds probably have all the penetration necessary to poke a hole through the lungs of your typical deer. As you get up in game size, it helps to have a little bit more mass and diameter, but these animals still aren't bullet proof. Some of the most successful elk hunters I've ever known have used cartridges that are pretty anemic by today's standards; .243 Win, .25-06, .270 Win, all loaded with some variant of JSP that they could find at their local hardware store. The idea that you need "x" amount of energy, or some Earsplitten Loudenboomer to humanely take game at responsible distances for most of us is rubbish. And that is what caliber debates always descend into. People get so caught up with such-and-such caliber that the idea someone could be successful with something else becomes offensive, and before you know it, you have two otherwise rational adults squabbling over this caliber vs that like someone is insulting their children.
Specialized roles like dangerous game hunting, long range hunting, or what would be considered traditionally more military use (body armor, defeating cover, ect) may require more specialized rifles and equipment. But even then, there is usually a relatively wide range of suitable equipment, and I don't think we really need to get as caught up in it. Having good gear is nice and can make a lot of jobs easier, but getting all caught up in minor details does no one any good. Humans are tool users and the tools we use matter. If all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails. But arguing ad nauseum about the difference between 21 oz and a 24 oz hammer I think is rather childish and counter productive.
How do you figure? I started with calibers. Most of the posts were saying why the caliber splits are what they are. Available cartridges for the caliber is a factor.Another post conflating caliber with cartridge.
I really expect better here.
Mass goes as the cube of the size increase.Why is it that a 6mm is consider way smaller than a 6.5, while a .308 is considered just as good as a 35 cal? Then we make the jump to .375 and it's way better than a 35.
It seems like there is a lot of arbitrary groupings of caliber classes.
This plays a big part. The steps don't go like that for the common bullet in each caliber.Mass goes as the cube of the size increase.
The bullet weights make larger jumps even though the diameter increases are similar or sometimes smaller. For the same ballistic shape a 6mm is around 100 to 110 grains, in 6.5mm 130 grains, .308 around 180-190 grains, but .375 it jumps to 350 grains.
Very well put.I believe in the "bigger through hole" theory of lethality. That is, the bullet that makes the biggest through hole will promote the most bleeding, and therefore will be the most lethality. Central nervous system hits are good if the brain is switched off. You can shoot an animal through the spine and the creature can survive days with its back legs useless, so there are limitations with central nervous system shots. But, if an animal lives and breathes, make it bleed enough, and it will stop breathing. This is always true and will always be true. Blood loss is a 100% kill mechanism.
And the discussion ought not be velocity but bullet expansion at distance. Standard bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.
You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.
And then, where are the shooters who can keep all their shots in an eight inch circle at range? Eight inches is a good approximation of the lethal zone on most game animals. If you are going to be ethical, you should have the skill set to keep your first and last shots in the lethal zone. This is to reduce animal suffering. Shooting something in the ass or the gut and having it run off to die in horrible pain days later is very unethical.
The further you go out, the more the wind moves the bullet, and I will tell you, wind movement is very unpredictable and it moves differently around hills, valleys, trees, fields. And yet, many ignore this critical aspect of shooting. Let me tell you, shoot sufficient Smallbore Prone, where the bullet has the ballistic coefficient of a spit wad. See the point of impact move radically, and yet, you never saw the arrival of the condition change. And after scanning the field, shooting some sighters, you never saw it go away. After years of this, you will become very paranoid about wind. It can make you somewhat superstitious. Some malevolent thing is messing with you, and you can't see it. But it is there.
Caliber discussions are relevant if all you are doing is punching holes in targets. Higher ballistic stuff bucks the wind better and therefore makes for a better target round.But, I would say, 99.99% of cartridge discussions ignore the marksmanship abilities of the shooter. Hitting a target, where you aimed it, is not determined by the gear you purchased. It is a skill and it takes practice.
Everything dies when it is heart shot in a very short period of time. CNS are not as reliable killers no matter what some self appointed guru tells you. Massive tissue damage to the heart and lungs is a sure killer. Blood loss kills if the wounds are big enough and in the right place. A bleeding deer can go a long time and sometimes recover. That is shot placement is primary, using a high velocity properly expanding bullet works best. The caliber or cartridge is not important within limits as another poster pointed out. Making a big hole is great but with not as good as massive tissue damage.
May I toss out the heavy, soft, and fast theory of wounding....
A soft, heavy for caliber bullet, with enough SD and mass to penetrate clean thru on most angles, driven fast.
There are limits to this working as game weight increases, and it causes a LOT of meat damage so shots need to be chosen accordingly.
Large case to bore ratios are also usually required.
Magnums excel at this theory when driving their heaviest bullets at 3000-3100fps
Bullets like Bergers, Amax/eldms, original Balistic tips etc, are what I've used.
Initial tissue disruption is usually substantial, and exit wounds range from significant, to.....ewwww.
A short range hit usually still causes so much damage the animal doesn't make it very far, if it moves at all.
Thru all this a larger bore dosent necessarily matter that much, as long as a heavy enough projectile can be driven to achieve complete penetration, at least from a mostly broad side presentation.
Just my personal theory, and I have seen it fail spectacularly, tho i can count those on one hand.
AmenWhy is it that a 6mm is consider way smaller than a 6.5, while a .308 is considered just as good as a 35 cal? Then we make the jump to .375 and it's way better than a 35.
It seems like there is a lot of arbitrary groupings of caliber classes.
Cartridge don't really matter much. Round balls loaded with a scoop of powder and loaded from the muzzle did just fine killing animals for hundreds of years. Arguing over which cartridge is better is just a load of nonsense.
My belief is that some soft skinned animals such as deer can do just fine with smaller calibers moving at high velocity, while other animals need a larger heavier slower moving bullet.
At least ONE thing's for sure... we are doing a lot of talking.This isn’t necessarily real in the world - but it’s a very straightforward analysis. In the real world, we’re stuck with effectively 3 action lengths and effectively 3 bolt faces, so the comparison described above, while VERY fair, just isn’t very tangible.
So, if we follow your guideline, “heaviest bullet at 2900fps.” That means every jump in caliber means a corresponding jump in bullet weight and equally, a corresponding jump in case capacity - and in this comparison, things become exceptionally obvious. To meet your description, you’re effectively talking about a comparison among: 77grn 223/5.56, 110grn 243win, 150grn 284win, 200grn 300win mag, and 250grn 375 H&H. Anyone who has done much hunting can recognize the incremental shift between each of these for game killing power. We’ve stepped up from a coyote cartridge to a deer cartridge, to an elk cartridge, to a moose & brown bear cartridge, to a dangerous game cartridge. We’ve also stepped up from a ~27grn powder charge to an ~80grn powder charge.
But this isn’t really how our world works most of the time. MOST cartridge comparisons aren’t comparing a mini length action to a short action, to a long action standard bolt face, to a long action Magnum, to an over-length Magnum - and certainly not talking about corresponding increases in case capacity, bullet weight, and caliber. MOST of the time when we talk caliber wars, we’re talking non-incremental changes among similar case capacities, such as 7-08 vs. 308win, 270win vs. 30-06, 300wm vs. 338wm... or worse, talking about totally unbalanced comparisons like 243win vs. 45-70, or 300blk vs. 6.5 Grendel.
And of course, enter a healthy dose of wholly subjective personal biases into that conversation, where folks pretend feelings equate facts, and things get even more silly.