Surplus Rifle Hunt, Part 2

BigBore44 said:

5. German Gewehr unmolested all numbers matching $375 (stole that one).

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Yes you did! and by the numbers a few more than that! A side note congratulations on 4 & 7 and here’s to more deals to come. I too wish I were a wee bit smarter, still practice practice practice.

Skylerbone said:

Yes you did! and by the numbers a few more than that! A side note congratulations on 4 & 7 and here’s to more deals to come. I too wish I were a wee bit smarter, still practice practice practice.

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Well there’s a lot more gun auction sites out there than gunbroker.

I'll throw in some heresy at this point by asking whether it matters to your shooting enjoyment that you use only the sights that were original to the rifle? There are ways to fit a red dot or pistol scope on a number of different milsurps using a fairly simple and, more importantly, reversible alteration to the tangent rear sight base.

This ugly-as-heck-but-practical approach used to be owned by B-Square's no-gunsmith mounts, but it looks like there are others in the game these days: https://www.badacetactical.com/products/best-mauser-k98k-scout-mount

Another option for the Mauser K98k, which is pricey and involves some DIY, is the repro ZF-41 scope and mount set sold by GPC: https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1049480

Here's a video explaining the zeroing process and practical use:



Alternatively, if the sights are a pain to see with aging eyes, you can get the kind of shooting glasses shown in my THR avatar. Mine has (have?) an adjustable iris in addition to a corrective lens; I invested in them specifically help me resolve the crazy fine notch on old Gewehr 98s with Lange Visier rear sights.

Has anyone else mentioned the MAS 36 yet?



FWIW, M1917/P14 sights rock!

Re: ammo costs for the Brits, not sure if this was mentioned yet, but AIM has Wolf .303 for less than $8 a box, PPU brass for around $14.

Yep, it's getting harder to find good milsurps.
A few years ago I picked up a 1916 Spanish Mauser cheap. The reason that it was cheap was that it was armory-rebarreled in 7.62 CETME - identical to 7.62 NATO but at about 2/3 power.
I didn't like that.
Yesterday I found another '16 Mauser with a cut stock and a later model front sight, but in the original 7mm Mauser and put it on lay-away.
My plan is to swap stocks and fore sights and have a pretty much as-issued 7mm Mauser (which is what I prefer) and a sporterized CETME Mauser for low-power fun shooting.
Total price: $375 and a bit of time.
Yeah, you have to dig deeper to find milsurps now..

You can debate makes and models all day long... some folks have varying preferences like cocking on opening or closing. However, I'd take a good Mauser over a worn out Enfield any day, and I'd take a good Enfield over a worn out Mauser any day. Barrel wear is critical; so is headspace and any lug setback. I also prefer matching numbers on all the parts; but that's not critical to being a good shooter.

When Mosin's were $89 a piece, I picked up a couple. Now that they're north of 300; unless you're intent on a Mosin, I'd say forget about it. There are tons of other options for spending 300+.

Lately, the best deals I've seen in the milsurp arena are Italian Carcanos. They're a bit more under the radar than Mosins... and, unlike something cobbled together by illiterate Russian peasants, you can find some made at the Beretta factory between wars when the supply chain was good.

If you are just getting started in buying military surplus rifles, imho, buying in person is important because you might just get an unshootable rifle unless you know what you are looking at. For example, there are unscrupulous or unknowing sellers of recovered drill rifles (mostly 1903a3's but a few 1903's out there where the barrel was welded to the receiver, the bolt release was welded, the bolt face was blobbed with a weld, and the barrel chamber had a welded plug in it. The risk is that the heat treatment was compromised by the welding. Sometimes you run into cut receivers that have been rewelded which is a Garand issue or odd things like non-military receivers made for different companies like National Ordnance or even Springfield Armory that used cast rather than forged receivers to use with real issued parts. Stretching, peening, out of spec issues, poor mfg. quality control, etc. can all be an issue and pretty much there is no company that will stand behind them even if the company is still in operation.

Regarding foreign arms, a commonly occuring variant are Brit pattern receivers marked DP by stamping receivers and parts. This means the rifle was dewatted for drill purpose which generally consisted of boring a hole through the stock and chamber of the barrel so that firing would be hazardous and there is a whole cottage industry in deciphering these markings such as EY (Emergency Use only) and so forth. Some folks have bought these rifles and discovered a half inch hole through the chamber that was concealed by a new stock and handguards or a stock that has been plugged. A very few have had bubba doing something to try to "fix" the chambers. Some of these rifles were simply surplus and aside from the barrel issue are as good as they were when issued.

Other countries welded bolts shut into the receiver, used them for stop gap cheap war reserves by sleeving barrels/chambers or putting a new barrel on it usually for 7.62 Nato--see the 93 and 95 Mauser series when these rifles were 50 years old or greater and designed for much lower pressure cartridges. Other individuals have rechambered or rebarrelled these old warhorses for different cartridges or "improved" ones that generally are "hotter" in pressure than the original. Some have been in fires, some have been recovered from being lost at sea, and some have compromised parts (swapped bolts, etc.) or are simply worn out from use with lug surfaces deformed and peened, and so on. A "tired" receiver that is stretching is simply one that needs to be junked or turned into a wall hanger. A few were butchered by importers like the MAS 36 in .308 where the barrel itself was simply not suitable for conversion or surplus folks such as Bannerman. Bannerman for example nearly did the impossible and made a Mosin very dangerous to shoot (http://www.mosinnagant.net/global mosin nagants/bannerman.asp).

For that reason, some of my more exotic online purchases have been barrelled or bare receivers as I would not be out much if these are compromised by pitting, lug setback, cracks, welding, out of spec bolts, and so on. A few have been problem rifles sold cheaper than the whole of the parts, where the bolt is locked into the receiver and so on which you can do with a No. 4 rifle pretty easily with no harm done or the cocking pieces/sear/safety do not function properly. A disclosed problem rifle is one that should be evaluated unemotionally as a potential parts donor or wall hanger if you are prepared to buy online. Matching parts do not bother me although you can get a greater price appreciation on such aside from the Germans, most military rifles were mixmasters in practice and some were extremely so like the Turks where poverty caused them to rebuild on a periodic basis and keep incompatible models in service. Their Forestry Berthiers are an example. The Finns also got as much mileage out of Mosin receivers as humanly possible with changing stocks, sights, barrels, triggers, magazine/trigger guards in seeking perfection.

The parts for my peculiar hobby have pretty much dried up but then again I did not put much into them and some of my restorations have taken years because I refuse to buy parts close to the price of a used rifle. Spending the time on reading research both online and in expert publications can also help decipher what are lambs and what are goats among rifles. I can and do solicit a milsurp familiar gunsmith when necessary to ask for safety evaluations and have the necessary tools etc. to work on them or have him do things like setting back a Mauser barrel for a GEW that someone had rechambered to some odd variant without marking the barrel. In my case, I am looking for shooter quality rifles that are interesting to me such as a low numbered 1894 Krag model and comparing that with the later 96 and 98 models and so on.

Whole rifles or sporter versions at market prices, I have generally bought in person where I could inspect them or from a trusted dealer. Simpsons, Ltd. is one such, Checkpoint Charlies, Allens Armory, and Joe Salter are long time dealers, do not damage their reputations by selling junk without disclosing that it is junk, and usually offer recourse if the rifle is not up to scratch. Some individual dealers/sellers do the same on Gunbroker in the policies section which are mainly the ones that take credit cards. Folks that pay cash can often get stuck.

Aside from Gunbroker, some folks use Armslist, trading and selling forums such as THR itself or Gunboards, or local sporting type forums for the odd bargain in a ftf meeting, and certainly as BigBore44 indicates,auction house auctions either in person or via proxy bidding online can result in a bargain if that is your thing.

Out of all of it, my advice is simply to become informed about what is out there on a particular rifle, research it so you can tell the good ones from bad ones, and don't spend too much until you are comfortable with the possibility of a wallhanger. After all, how much is your face, hands, avoiding medical bills, or even your life worth.

Stay safe and my opinions are my own. As usual, your mileage may vary (YMMV).

OK, Boom-Boom, your post is kinda like taking a drink from a fire hose. Under stand you "studied" a lot, what about a basic course in "H ow to Avoid.....".

PWC said:

OK, Boom-Boom, your post is kinda like taking a drink from a fire hose. Under stand you "studied" a lot, what about a basic course in "H ow to Avoid.....".

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My problem is that I use voice dictation and sometimes it comes out as stream of conscience. When talking, I have new thoughts and unfortunately try to be comprehensive sometimes.

Here are things to look to avoid in milsurps.

A) receivers that have been excessively D&T'ed, welded, Enfields that have been marked DP except as parts rifles, rifles converted using parts from several sources such as Bannermans mongrel Krag/Springfield/Enfield abominations. Any DP marked receiver should be carefully examined by an expert before conversion into a firing rifle. If you do not know what lug setback is, don't know how to use gauges to check headspace, or where they drilled holes to dewat these, get an expert opinion.

B) rifles and or receivers that have been rechambered in modern high pressure cartridges--century old receivers are generally not wise candidates for the latest supermagnums. Metallurgy was crude even while the craftsmanship was great.

C) rifles that have the original markings obliterated that are chambered in mystery cartridges. You might have liked Mystery Date as a game as a child, not so amusing in rifles.

D) badly pitted receivers or receivers that have thumb cuts to allow feeder clip feeding (see some GEW 88/05 models for example). In an exciting event occurence, this is a spot for the receiver to break into pieces, perhaps at high speed.

E) Corroded or rusty bores--there is dark and pitted and then there is rusty and corroded. The first might clean up and if the pits are in the grooves rather than lands, then it might be fairly accurate until it fouls. The second type might involve a bullet slowing down or stopping in the bore due to friction and then pressure spike--kablooey where your barrel turns into a flower or grenades.

In a similar vein, bulged barrels or those with extensive external pitting, or various holes where Bubba tried to mount a barrel sight , etc.. These now have weak spots that can make firing high power rifle rounds an exciting event. This is not your low powered 10,000 psi, a .22 LR at about 22,000 psi but even the lowly 30-30 generates nearly 40000 psi.

F) Barrels, bolts, and receivers that have various sorts of notches, machining operations, or heat discoloration from grinding, welding, etc. The widespread use of indiscriminate welding, Dremels and grinders have been used by Bubba to resolve all sorts of ills. Some folks think it smart to heat barrels to red hot to remove them from receivers--it is not. Want to know about heat treatment, read up on it or ask an experienced welder about how heat affects unknown alloys.

G) Krags or other rifles where the person brags on having lapped the bolt so that the bolt lugs and bolt handles both bear loads. Generally that means that they have went right through the heat treated bolt lug exterior into the softer core. Not good.

H) Various weird rifles not found in common reference books that are alleged to be coming from places such as China, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Often these sort of look like something in the magazines or books but have strange features not present in them.

Khyber Pass is one such place that has a kitchen industry of making odd home made variants of the various arms that have passed through Pakistan. The Philippine Islands also have a lot of backdoor gun crafting of popular models in that country. You might encounter quaint practices such as using rusty nails as firing pins, pot metal bolts that bend when firing, non working safeties, and no concept of modern heat treatment on some. Like the looks, keep it as a wall hanger. When you have misspelling of Mauser as Wauser or English lettering that has a few backward letters, then the hint is that yours might have been made in some back alley.

I) For a shooting rifle, it is best to avoid rifles where the nation was too cheap to buy new rifles to fire newer and more powerful cartridges. Thus, some were rebarrelled, rebored, some had chamber inserts, etc. Many of these used rifles simply as a badge of authority or war reserve so they were fired little. There will be some folks on forums that swear that they have put 100,000 rounds through them or that some laboratory test where a defunct company paid for testing receivers to destruction.

My question is how much is your face, hands, eyes, or even life is worth. By the time of copays, deductibles, and balance billing, firing rifle using a cartridge that was outside of its specified making where the rifle was subject to dubious storage and use is for those who love risks.

J) There are some rifles that have known issues and anyone firing them should at least educate themselves on the pros and cons.

a) Ross Rifles of 1910 (little issue of incorrect reassembly of the bolt)

b) Some makes of the GEW 88's as some of these were not manufactured correctly either heat treatment etc. Some ersatz versions were made in China for warlords and some of these crappy parts show up used on auctions or even gunparts.com

c) low number 1903's--there is a whole set of flamewars over this very issue--if you have one (old guns.net can give you the year of mfg and whether you have a low number Springfield or Rock Island receiver that might not be safe to fire with brittle receivers and bolts. Get informed and then decide whether or not firing a potential grenade is worth it. Most are probably fine. There is also a known problem with some WWI era barrels being made with burnt steel that burst upon firing--see Avis barrels.

d) some reports of cracked receiver rings in 1917 Rifles, probably caused by rebarrelling with a few alleging improper heat treatment (Eddystone makes are often cited but other Remington and even Winchester have had a few cracked receiver reports). Whether it is from scarcity or not, I have not seen any reports of such on the earlier P14 series--it is possible the English inspectors were more thorough.

e) Japanese training or school rifles where some had cast iron receivers and were not to be fired with live ammo or some school rifles were service rifles not fit for live fire anymore. If you see 00 stamped in front of the regular serial number, and odd defacements of the mum, then you probably have a school rifle. My example was an early T38 where the receiver had stretched with a very worn barrel. Someone had butchered the stock and was apparently firing it until it was sold as a Bambi Killer. I bought it in person because it was a neat cheap rifle. I keep it around as a lesson.

f) Chilean sleeved long Mauser 95's in .308--lousy job and many reports of separation have occurred.

g) Steyr 95's deacs where the bolt was spot welded underneath to the receiver.

h) late WWII wartime 98k Rifles made by slave labor might not be the best idea to fire. Some contractors had some issues with heat treatment. Some folks put Japanese last ditch Arisakas in a similar situation.

i) Carcanos in 8x57 made as emergency conversions, Volkstrum rifles, or the Vetterli converted to 6.5 Carcano. Emergency conversions mean probably unsuited for safe firing.

j) Krags, cracked bolt lug due to Army attempts to up the .30-40 Krag performance with more power and with only one lug, you don't want that. There was a reason that a lot of new old stock Krag bolts were floating around until just recently--the Army screwed up and needed a lot of replacement bolts in a hurry.


I got more but I am already running long. Peace out man.

I remember using the OCR capability of the HQ IT where we could call on to dictate reports; yada yada yada comma yada yada yada period space space capital yada yada yada....