Surplus rifles

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The last gun show I went to I didn't know much about surplus rifles. Now, months later, I still dont. :rolleyes:

However, I've seen that they're cheap, the ammo is cheap, and a lot of people have them.

A fairly open ended question-- With 2 gun shows coming up, what would be an interesting rifle to buy that shoots cheap ammo? I've heard names floating around like Mosin, Mosin-Nagant, Mausers, Enfields, etc etc.

Any suggestions? I'm pretty lost.

Thanks
 
Two Milsurp guns I own are both Ishapore .308/7.62 NATO. Love them and they shoot well IMHO. Shoot straiter than I do.
I am considering a Schmitt-Rubin K-31 since Everyone has a High opinion of the Swiss guns.
I would also, if I could find one and had the money buy a Swede Mauser. The Husquarvana's were excelent rifles, Very Accurate very far away.
Grover saying Near ............... Faaaaaaaaaar is in my brain right now. Sorry for the odd thought interuption.
The Yugo 24-47's are a good intro priced Mauser.
I have an old Room mate who had a Ton of Enfields, and swore by them, Said no other was as good. Not one Mauser in his Walk-In Gun Safe. SKS, AK's O3A3's not a Mauser to be seen.
I also own a Sporterized Remington 03A3 but it is not Military config and not restorable. It Is a fine shooter though.
 
Cheap ammo= Mosin or Mauser
Not so cheap ammo= Enfield
Pricey ammo= Swiss K31

Not on your list is the SKS. If you don't have one yet, I'd consider that one first. Ammo still reasonable cheap, but more money than in the past.

Our esteemed Governor will likely ban the SKS in the next year or two, along with AR's and .50 caliber guns. :barf:
 
Okay, so either a Mosin-Nagant or a Mauser. What's the history of these guns? Both used in WWII by the Russians/Germans?

What are the prices of 7.62x54R vs. 8mm?

Almost as dumb as my Hoppes question... What is the correct pronunciation of Mosin Nagant and Mauser?



Thanks again.
 
What is the correct pronunciation of Mosin Nagant and Mauser?
Not exactly sure about the M-N as I've never heard it spoken in words but its close to "Mozine nahgahn" Mauser is simply "mow-zer" where 'mow' sounds like 'ow' or 'ouch'


What are the prices of 7.62x54R vs. 8mm?
Usually around 10 cents/round if you buy it by the case of 300-400.

Both used in WWII by the Russians/Germans?
Yes. mainly K98 and VZ-24 and a few rarer variants were used by the germans. Russians used mainly 91/30s along with some M38s and a few M44s.
 
Mosin nagant-(MO-seen Nah-GON) russian design. been made since 1891, probibly still being made in some north korean basement. Cheapest gun to buy, cheapest to shoot, aftermarket stocks. holds 5 rounds. built like a soviet woman.( probibly by a soviet woman aswell) 7.62X54r is an "obsolete" cartrigage but is still being used in soviet machine guns and sniper rifles. comparable to a 30-06 but just under. 440 rounds for like >50$
M91/30
M38
M44
Finnish rifles are worth considerably more, and id wait till you knew more about what your looking for before you spend that money


Enfield- brit rifle. made since before WW1. medium priced rifle, fires the rather costly .303 round. FAST action with the bolt, but a weak action. 10 round detachable mag, can be loaded with strippers. there are Ishapore models that are chambered in .308

K31- Swiss rifle. EXCELENT accuracy.6 rounds of 7.5x55 mm straight pull action. words cannot express this rifle. wait one word can "Expensive"

Mausers- here things get crazy. and I dont even know the ups and downs. all i can say, is Mitchell Mausers are NOT GERMAN. thats not a good or bad, but dont let someone screw you outta your hard earned money
 
What is the correct pronunciation of Mosin Nagant and Mauser?

Mauser was already covered. Mosin-Nagant is pronounced Mow(as in your yard)-seen, Nuh-gahn. At least I think that's right. Nobody's ever laughed at me for saying it that way, at least. Check out www.surplusrifle.com for lots of info, just do it soon, it's gonna shut down in March.
 
Okay, I think I'll just start off with a Mosin Nagant. What's the diffreences between all of them (91/30, M38, M44, etc)?

What would be a good price at a gun show for one in good + condition? What should I look for in terms of functionality? Anything else I should know?


Thanks:)
 
But most of this ammo has corrosive primers so you need to clean right after shooting with an ammonia solution.

Use water, and the hotter the better. The corrosion is due to potassium chloride, which is a waste product of corrosive primers. This salt is water soluble so you let the water dissolve it and wash it away. Ammonia has nothing to do with it. This belief probably comes from the good results obtained with an old cleaning solution called Ammonia Dope. What was really fighting the corrosion was the water in Ammonia Dope, not the ammonia.

Go to the library and read Chapter XIV, "Gun Corrosion and Ammunition Developments," in Hatcher's Notebook by Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher for more details.
 
Okay, I think I'll just start off with a Mosin Nagant. What's the diffreences between all of them (91/30, M38, M44, etc)?

91/30 is a full length rifle with a 28" barrel
M38 is a shorter M91/30, with a 20" barrel not made to carry bayonet
M44 is basicly a M38 with a folding bayonet

the M91/30 is the most common rifle you will find. run 60-70$ if you know where to look ( MA prices will be more due to market) Most are War era rifles and range from qood quality to "built by a drunken monkey with a butter knife" Pre war/ early war rifles have hexagonal recievers mid to post war have round recievers. Pre War is better than war period. post war rifles are alright. the cheap 91/30's out there are War Era rifles and so can be anything from good to crap in both build quality and condition. some never left warehouses, some still have scraps of Han's and Gunder stuck to the bayonet from berlin (joke, insert laughing here)

M38 are shorter MN. functionaly the same, but since the majority of these are early war rifles, they tend to be of better quality than the majority of 91/30's on the market, wich are war era.

M44's have a folding bayonet and also vary in condition and build quality. the M44 started in 1944 ( duh) so most are slightly better build than 91/30's and alot of the ones you will run into are post war, or satalite builds.

dont even get me started on the M91/59 and M91/38 and all the finish models
 
if you are talking to anyone and call them a ' moss-in' or a' m-oww-zur' pronounce them both as one continuous word, of course , you will have no probs. if you get the m38, make sure to get a SMALL sized slip on recoil pad. helps correct the very short lenght of pull, and also curbs that studly recoil.
 
oh. and i forgot

for the Mosins.

War era "Tula" arsenals ( arrow in a star mark on barrel shank) are more "collectable" than Izhevsky (Arrow in a Triangle) rifles

where as pre war Izhevsk rifles are more rare than Tula rifles

if it says Remington or New England Westinghouse.... buy it if its affordable, but i donno how much thyer worth. nothing cooler than an american made russian rifle ( US companys made these for the Czarist government, the revolution happened before all were delivered)

Check out here for photos of the guns and thier markings
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinIDII.htm


its alot to take in at first :neener:
 
K31- Swiss rifle. EXCELENT accuracy.6 rounds of 7.5x55 mm straight pull action. words cannot express this rifle. wait one word can "Expensive"

Expensive? At between $90-$150 usually they are cheaper to buy than a Mosin and many Lee Enfields. Surplus rounds can be out there for $8 for a battle pack of 60, which is pretty good as its match grade quality and non corrosive. Sure its more than 7.62x54r for the Mosin and 8mm for the Mauser is, though thats some really old corrosive stuff that doesn't even compare to the accuracy. The K31 Swiss used to be expensive about 10 years ago but now they are relatively dirt cheap.

Mosins are probrobly your most economical firearm. You can find 91/30s and M44s for under $80 in places and in really good condition for not much more. Ammo is dirt cheap and they are built to last. Finnish Mosins are the best ones out there but will more than double the price.

Mausers will cost you a little over double the price going for around $150-250 depending on quality. You could get a Yugo Mauser M24 for a $100 of course, but WW2 stuff like proper K98s will cost more, but its hard to beat them for sheer neat factor. Again they have really cheap surplus ammo available and its once again corrosive and not the most accurate in the world. The best Mausers in my opinion are the Persians and they cost a tad more.

Lee Enfields can be seen in the $100-150 up to $200 or more if it has the lend lease stuff on it, In my opinion the finest bolt action battle rifle, with a smooth, quick bolt. Ammo is the most costly, with surplus being more rare. You can occasionally find it or else you have to pay for the more costly commercial ammo at about $8-25 a box of 20 depending on brands. There are Ishapore 2a and 2a1 rifles out there in 7.62mm nato. These cost more but are worth it for the cheaper ammo.

Springfield 1903s will see the price jumping to $400 and as high as $1000 in the US being as its a domestic rifle they gauge the price. A fair Mauser design in plentiful 30-06 ammo. Garands and M1 carbines add to the price even more.

Arisakis are nice Japanese rifles. Strong action being another Mauser, though the ammo is a little rarer and will cost you more. Bunch of others out there too like the Italian Carcano (probrobly most famous nowadays as being the weapon that shot JFK) but will cost you more to feed the system when at one time they were some of the cheapest out there with so many being bringbacks.

You could always also invest in an SKS for usually under a $150 and have a semi automatic, 10 shot Yugo in unissued condition. Ammo comes on about $2-$3 for a box of 20 of not the best stuff in the world but a number of its non corrosive I guess is the best thing you can say about it.

My recommendation would probrobly be start off with a Mosin however.
 
LtW

Another side benefit for a young guy like you... Take the time to research the rifle and the HISTORY behind it.

Example...buy a Finn M39, and learn about Russian domination of Finland, the Winter War, the Continuation War, Finland's odd alliance with the Nazi's (purely to fight against Russia), etc. Put your ear close to a Russia-captured K98 and here the terror of the German troops running from Stalingrad, throwing down everything they can to get outta there. They didn't learn much from Napoleon about Russian Winters...

Every mil-surp has an amazing story to tell.

Our history can guide us in the future...it's just not many people seem to want to pay attention
 
...and learn about Russian domination of Finland, the Winter War, the Continuation War, Finland's odd alliance with the Nazi's (purely to fight against Russia), ...

You are right about that, I never heard of this war until the folks here started talking about it (regarding Mosin-Nagants of course).
 
You can learn plenty about surplus rifles on the web so you will know what you are looking at when you go to a gun show.

I think this is the golden age of Military Surplus rifles, and it won't last forever or come again. No generation of military rifles is going to equal the one now available.

In Order of importance for collecting:

1. CMP Garand
2. US Springfield 1903 or 1903A3.
3. US M1 Carbine.
4. German K98 Mauser.
5. Swiss K31 or 1911.
6. Swedish M96 or M38.
7. Mosin Nagant.
8. Enfield.
9. SKS
10. US P17.
11. Argentine 1891 or 1909 Mauser.

And that just starts a list. There are three or four versions of the Enfield, the SKS, the K98, 10 makers of Carbines, 4 makers of Garands, plus Turks, Egyptians, Persians, Chileans, Mexican, Peruvian, Spanish, Yugoslavian, CZ, et, et, et.

But you better get cracking NOW. Finn Mosins just came out.

This won't last.
 
Quote:
K31- Swiss rifle. EXCELENT accuracy.6 rounds of 7.5x55 mm straight pull action. words cannot express this rifle. wait one word can "Expensive"

Expensive? At between $90-$150 usually they are cheaper to buy than a Mosin and many Lee Enfields. Surplus rounds can be out there for $8 for a battle pack of 60, which is pretty good as its match grade quality and non corrosive. Sure its more than 7.62x54r for the Mosin and 8mm for the Mauser is, though thats some really old corrosive stuff that doesn't even compare to the accuracy. The K31 Swiss used to be expensive about 10 years ago but now they are relatively dirt cheap.


Where are you getting 7.5x55mm for 8 bucks/60? It's 30 bucks or more/60 everywhere I've seen.

I paid 90 dollars for my K31 a couple years back. Love it. I'm probably going to trade off an SKS to get into another one.
 
+1 for the Mosin.

You'll get a stout, dead-reliable battle rifle firing a full-power cartridge that's reasonably accurate (I can nail soda cans at 100yds all day) and dripping with history - all for less than a Benny.

For another Ben you can get 880 rounds of surplus ammo shipped right to your door. My three go along with me on every shooting trip and I've yet to get through my first 880 rounds (though I only have about 90rds left at this point).

The M44s are significantly heavier than the M38/M91 for some reason, and they have an integral folding bayonet. The generally-accepted rumor is that they were sighted in with the bayonet extended, and it seems to hold true for my examples.

The M38s are light and handy and would be my first choice for a brush gun or hunting gun. The M91/30 is the full-sized "rifle" (M44 and M38 are carbines) and is about the same weight as the M38 despite being quite a bit longer. I don't like the sights on the 91/30 though - the rear sight groove on mine is really shallow and makes picking up the front sight an annoying process. The detachable bayonet that came with mine is too tight to fit on the gun, even after going over it with sandpaper on a dowel and then chucked into a drill. Makes a wicked handheld burglar deterrent though. :D

You can't go wrong with any of the three types, but I'd recommend an M38 for weight and sights. Regarding ammo, try to avoid lacquered-case stuff like Wolf and some Russian surplus because the lacquer fuses to the chamber walls under the heat and pressure of firing and causes the bolt to stick. There's enough unlacquered surplus out there that it really isn't worth the bother.

Check out surplusrifle.com, mosinnagant.net and 7.62x54R.com for identification of markings and more information in general than you'll ever, ever need about these fine old battle rifles. :D
 
Yes, Russia did really well against Finland. They managed to defeat the Finnish, when they outnumbered them 4 to 1, 30 to 1 in aircraft, 100 to 1 on tanks and and so on and it only cost them over 125000 men or 5 times as many Finns lost and in the end Russia after having to totally reorganise their armies, sacking of the generals and so on manage to come out with 10% of Finland for their efforts. In one battle the Finns ambushed 28000 Soviets and wiped them out to almost a man with only 800 casualties and made the Soviets seem like a laughing stock. Luckly what it did do was get the Soviets reorganised so they could fight the Germans.

You might want to read about the likes of Simo Häyhä who as a sniper armed with a Mosin Nagant M28 rifle with iron sights had 500 confirmed kills in a 100 days of service. The Finnish snipers and guerilla tactics tore the Russian forces to pieces and made that victory really costly.
 
Limeyfellow

the expensive part is the ammo. the cost of the rifle is comparatively insignificant. and as the supply of surplus gp11 dries up we may or may not see a drop in price from domestic commercial ammo taking up the slack. the POSSIBLE 10 or 20$ less for the cost of the rifle doesnt negate the cost of the ammo. iv never seen 7.5x55 for the 8$ per 60 you said. but that price is about what youd pay for 7,62X54r with out even looking around.

7.62x54r will never run out. importation may stop for political reasons. but there will always be a solid supply of 7.62X54r. it is probibly THE MOST COMMON CENTERFIRE ROUND. more guns have been chambered for this round than any other centerfire round. the only other round that could beat this is 7.62X39.

dont get me wrong i love k31's but you will quickly run the bill up.
 
Yes, Russia did really well against Finland. They managed to defeat the Finnish, when they outnumbered them 4 to 1, 30 to 1 in aircraft, 100 to 1 on tanks and and so on and it only cost them over 125000 men

There was a good quote I read that a Russian general reputedly said...it went something like:

"Congratulations, Comrade General, on your great victory"

"Victory? Yes, I've taken nearly enough land to bury my dead"
 
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