Surplus rifles
- Thread starter LkWinnipesaukee
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LkWinnipesaukee
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My dad questions the safety of firing these rifles and old ammo.
It IS safe, right?
It IS safe, right?
Cosmoline
Member
What are "these rifles" and what ammo? As long as you're using the right cartridge for the firearm and your headspace is good, there aren't any inherent safety problems for most surplus rifles. There are some of the more obscure rifles that can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, but these haven't even come up in the thread yet.
It IS safe, right?
You should have the rifle headspaced before you shoot it. You can also check certain functions and dimensions, such as firing pin protrusion and the like. There are sites online with good descriptions of these things.
A rifle with all matching serial numbers has a better chance of being safer, but any gun can go kaboom if it's out of spec or malfunctioning.
jm
You should have the rifle headspaced before you shoot it. You can also check certain functions and dimensions, such as firing pin protrusion and the like. There are sites online with good descriptions of these things.
A rifle with all matching serial numbers has a better chance of being safer, but any gun can go kaboom if it's out of spec or malfunctioning.
jm
ugaarguy
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Safety
LKW,
The '98 Mausers were an improved version of the '96 Mauser. Mauser experts correct me if I'm wrong, but the '98 went to a larger diameter, thicker reciever, and added a 3rd lug to the rear of the bolt for an even stronger lock up. '98 Mausers actions have been rebarreled and chambered for some VERY stout rounds used for dangerous game hunting in Africa. The 8mm Mauser round is no slouch, but it's nothing compared to what the action will take. That should help convince your dad about their safety.
I don't own a Mosin-Nagant, but between the ones I've handled, and everything I've read they look to be built overly stout in typical Russian fashion. They're the Soviet tank of bolt action rifles.
The Enfields aren't as strong as the M-Ns or Mausers, but they're still far stronger than needed for the 303 British round they chamber. They do have a very slick action and are quite fun to shoot.
The key thing to remember is that the rifles mentioned in this thread are all very strong military weapons built for the abuse of war. They'll all be plenty safe for you using surplus ammo - or new commercial stuff if you run out of surplus before you get more in the mail / at the gun show. As others have said the history behind them is incredible, and that just adds depth to the experience.
LKW,
The '98 Mausers were an improved version of the '96 Mauser. Mauser experts correct me if I'm wrong, but the '98 went to a larger diameter, thicker reciever, and added a 3rd lug to the rear of the bolt for an even stronger lock up. '98 Mausers actions have been rebarreled and chambered for some VERY stout rounds used for dangerous game hunting in Africa. The 8mm Mauser round is no slouch, but it's nothing compared to what the action will take. That should help convince your dad about their safety.
I don't own a Mosin-Nagant, but between the ones I've handled, and everything I've read they look to be built overly stout in typical Russian fashion. They're the Soviet tank of bolt action rifles.
The Enfields aren't as strong as the M-Ns or Mausers, but they're still far stronger than needed for the 303 British round they chamber. They do have a very slick action and are quite fun to shoot.
The key thing to remember is that the rifles mentioned in this thread are all very strong military weapons built for the abuse of war. They'll all be plenty safe for you using surplus ammo - or new commercial stuff if you run out of surplus before you get more in the mail / at the gun show. As others have said the history behind them is incredible, and that just adds depth to the experience.
LkWinnipesaukee
Member
Thanks for the replies. I'll be looking for a Mosin-Nagant and some surplus 7.62x54R for it tomorrow at the show. My father is jsut worried about the danger of using old surplus ammo, not so much the gun. He has heard that powder can either weaken or strengthen with age, and if it happens to get more "potent", it can lead to a kB. Is there any truth to this?
To the above poster, where would "matching serials" be located? Obviously on the receiver, but anywhere else on the gun?
How can I check headspace?
Anything else I should be looking out for?
Thanks again.
To the above poster, where would "matching serials" be located? Obviously on the receiver, but anywhere else on the gun?
How can I check headspace?
Anything else I should be looking out for?
Thanks again.
joab
Member
I bought one of those Scunci steamers for that purpose, works great
Get pre war the difference is very noticeable as far as fit and finish and the price is not much more if anything
Serial numbers are on the receiver, mag plate and bolt
There may be two sets of numbers
One will be factory stamped and one will be stencil with an electric pencil
If you can get the matching stamped numbers it will increase the collectibility if not make sure that the stenciled numbers match
The date will be stamped above the serial number on the receiver.
If it looks like 1933/43 That means it is prewar 1933 rearsenaled in 43
Also if it isn't too much more get a Tula hex receiver if you are going for collectibility
LkWinnipesaukee
Member
Thats the one with an arrow inside a star, right?
And what happens when a gun is rearsenaled?
rangerruck
Member
dont forget, there are several companies, that make that russian round new, like Wolf, and they are non corrosive, wolf is about 5 bucks per box.
wnycollector
Member
LkWinnipesaukee it looks like you are leaning twords the M/N...an excellent choice! I own several...with more sneaking into my house every few months Just save some cash for a BIG guns safe...they are addicting to collect!
Just save some cash for a BIG guns safe...they are addicting to collect!joab
Member
Yes. The Hex has a hexagon shaped reciever, supposed to be stronger
It's been rebuilt, reblued and rejuvenated.. May effect collectibility, I don't knnow. My Tula has the double date stamp and I can see no difference between it and my other pre war MN
Everyone needs a Mosin. If you're lucky, look for a '43 dated M-44 carbine (the one with the bayonet) or one with a circled 11 on the reciever. Those are collectable and valuable, but seldom do sellers know that.
Mosins are cheap, nearly indestructable, and shoot good.
I'd also put in a plug for Turkish Mausers. Circassian walnut stocks, '98 mauser action, all for under a hundred bucks. Parts from all over cobbled together into a shootable rifle. Greasy, but worth it.
Mosins are cheap, nearly indestructable, and shoot good.
I'd also put in a plug for Turkish Mausers. Circassian walnut stocks, '98 mauser action, all for under a hundred bucks. Parts from all over cobbled together into a shootable rifle. Greasy, but worth it.
jpr9954
Member
That's a darn good idea! I bought one of those steamers to use in cleaning cosmoline off of rifles (and the bathroom). Now I have another use for it.
Thanks
John in WNC
RockyMtnTactical
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I use a heat gun to clean off cosmoline. It just melts right off of the weapon and then I wipe it down with a rag.
LkW
I recieved my first milsurp this christmas from my wife, a Mauser K98k. I love it and the idea of having historical firearms. Mine was made in 1939 and was from a Russian release of captured weapons. There is no knowing the stories this rifle could tell if it could speak. It has gotten me re-interested in WWII and the history I used to be so into studying.
I did take mine to a gunsmith and paid a few dollars for him to check it our for me prior to firing it. I may be overly cautious but better safe than sorry.
Good luck and take your time making your choice. You have received some very valuable information. An informed decision is the best decision.
I recieved my first milsurp this christmas from my wife, a Mauser K98k. I love it and the idea of having historical firearms. Mine was made in 1939 and was from a Russian release of captured weapons. There is no knowing the stories this rifle could tell if it could speak. It has gotten me re-interested in WWII and the history I used to be so into studying.
I did take mine to a gunsmith and paid a few dollars for him to check it our for me prior to firing it. I may be overly cautious but better safe than sorry.
Good luck and take your time making your choice. You have received some very valuable information. An informed decision is the best decision.
LkWinnipesaukee
Member
Pre War would be mean Pre-1914 (year WWI started), correct?
joab
Member
Pre WWII
dstorm1911
Member
If ya are wanting a Mosin Nagant actually used in WWII then ya want a 91/30 or M38, the M44 wasn't introdiced untill the last months of the war ie; 1944 the primary rifle used by the soviets was the 91/30 the m38 was very very limited and primarily issued to tank crews the M44 was designed to answer the problem of urban use, but soviet infantry rifles had to have a bayonet the 91/30 bayos were "lost" frequently hence the mounting of the bayo to the rifle..
The downside of the M38 is that most are counterbored, the accuracy is a real crap shoot, The HEX recievered 91/30 was discontinued in 1934, don't get all hung up on exterior finish ya want a good shiny bore, and a tight bore, get ya a 7.62x54 round and pull the bullet, keep this in your pocket while shopping, when ya find a rifle ya are intrested in start with a visual examination, most are "re-arsenaled" that are available these day, the amber shelac is just slathered on em etc.. ya can smooth out and clean up a bad shelacc finish with a rag dampened in denatured alcohol thats why the exterior is of lil concern, remove the bolt and look down the bore, ya want sharp well defined rifling, it will probably have cosmoline in it so ya won't be able to see if its shiny but ya'll be able to tell, next look at the muzzle the crown shoult be even and clean, now take your pulled bullet and place it in the muzzle with the tip pointed in, how deep it fits into the muzzle is your indicater of how worn the bore is. An excellent bore will hold it right at the middle or a lil before that, the more worn the bore is the deeper the bullet will go into it........ and if your bullet rattles out the reciever end..... politally hand the seller back his rifle and RUN thats a junk wall hanger.....
Good luck
The downside of the M38 is that most are counterbored, the accuracy is a real crap shoot, The HEX recievered 91/30 was discontinued in 1934, don't get all hung up on exterior finish ya want a good shiny bore, and a tight bore, get ya a 7.62x54 round and pull the bullet, keep this in your pocket while shopping, when ya find a rifle ya are intrested in start with a visual examination, most are "re-arsenaled" that are available these day, the amber shelac is just slathered on em etc.. ya can smooth out and clean up a bad shelacc finish with a rag dampened in denatured alcohol thats why the exterior is of lil concern, remove the bolt and look down the bore, ya want sharp well defined rifling, it will probably have cosmoline in it so ya won't be able to see if its shiny but ya'll be able to tell, next look at the muzzle the crown shoult be even and clean, now take your pulled bullet and place it in the muzzle with the tip pointed in, how deep it fits into the muzzle is your indicater of how worn the bore is. An excellent bore will hold it right at the middle or a lil before that, the more worn the bore is the deeper the bullet will go into it........ and if your bullet rattles out the reciever end..... politally hand the seller back his rifle and RUN thats a junk wall hanger.....
Good luck
Gord
Member
LK,
Nothing's wrong with the surplus ammo - a lot of surplus of all types (5.56, 8mm, 7.62x54R, .303, etc) dates back to the '40s and '50s and is just fine. A lot of 7.62x54R is newer stuff from the '70s and '80s.
On a Mosin-Nagant, serial numbers are located as follows:
- On the receiver, below the year stamp
- On the bolt
- On the buttplate
- On the magazine floorplate
- Possibly on the stock
A mismatched Mosin will have the original serial number crossed out either by a stamp or by an electropencil, and a new "matching" serial will have been stamped or electropenciled onto that part. It doesn't matter any except for collectability, although you should headspace a mismatched bolt.
A gunsmith or shop owner can do it for you if he has a set of 7.62x54R go/no go gauges, but unless Mosins are really popular in your area he probably won't - mine just told me to tape two layers of electrical tape over the bolt face and see if it closed. If it doesn't, it's fine.
You can also buy the bolt tool which includes notches for checking firing pin protrusion as well as being a handy screwdriver for taking the gun down.
When a Mosin is rearsenaled it's reblued if needed and any needed repairs to the stock (for cracks, etc.) are made. To signify it was rearsenaled they stamped a box with a slash through it on the stock and the receiver - looks kinda like [/]. It can be a pretty light stamp and hard to notice, but it should be there. No mark, no rearsenal - it's all as original.
Mosin bolts (among other parts) are often mismatched because the Russians, when cleaning their rifles, would take 'em down and dump all the parts into one big communal tub of cleaner, then reassemble their rifles with the first parts they grabbed out of the tub, matching or not.
There is a noticeable difference in appearance on pre-war and war-year rifles - my '46 is a ton smoother than my '44. The '44 has tooling marks all over the exterior and the receiver tang is misshaped, looks like somebody finished it with a fine file. It's not that bad, but if you're looking for a "really nice" Mosin (some here are crying oxymoron right now) go for a pre- or post-war year.
Regarding counterboring, since I imagine you don't know - if the rifling towards the business end of the barrel was damaged enough to affect accuracy noticeably, the rifle was counterbored during rearsenaling - basically, the barrel was bored out down to undamaged rifling. My '46 is counterbored and very accurate. You'll be able to look down the barrel from the business end (with the bolt out, or at least open, of course) and see if it's counterbored - the first 1-3 inches of the barrel will be a larger diameter with no rifling, and then it'll "step" down to a smaller diameter with rifling.
Nothing's wrong with the surplus ammo - a lot of surplus of all types (5.56, 8mm, 7.62x54R, .303, etc) dates back to the '40s and '50s and is just fine. A lot of 7.62x54R is newer stuff from the '70s and '80s.
On a Mosin-Nagant, serial numbers are located as follows:
- On the receiver, below the year stamp
- On the bolt
- On the buttplate
- On the magazine floorplate
- Possibly on the stock
A mismatched Mosin will have the original serial number crossed out either by a stamp or by an electropencil, and a new "matching" serial will have been stamped or electropenciled onto that part. It doesn't matter any except for collectability, although you should headspace a mismatched bolt.
A gunsmith or shop owner can do it for you if he has a set of 7.62x54R go/no go gauges, but unless Mosins are really popular in your area he probably won't - mine just told me to tape two layers of electrical tape over the bolt face and see if it closed. If it doesn't, it's fine.
You can also buy the bolt tool which includes notches for checking firing pin protrusion as well as being a handy screwdriver for taking the gun down.
When a Mosin is rearsenaled it's reblued if needed and any needed repairs to the stock (for cracks, etc.) are made. To signify it was rearsenaled they stamped a box with a slash through it on the stock and the receiver - looks kinda like [/]. It can be a pretty light stamp and hard to notice, but it should be there. No mark, no rearsenal - it's all as original.
Mosin bolts (among other parts) are often mismatched because the Russians, when cleaning their rifles, would take 'em down and dump all the parts into one big communal tub of cleaner, then reassemble their rifles with the first parts they grabbed out of the tub, matching or not.
There is a noticeable difference in appearance on pre-war and war-year rifles - my '46 is a ton smoother than my '44. The '44 has tooling marks all over the exterior and the receiver tang is misshaped, looks like somebody finished it with a fine file. It's not that bad, but if you're looking for a "really nice" Mosin (some here are crying oxymoron right now) go for a pre- or post-war year.
Regarding counterboring, since I imagine you don't know - if the rifling towards the business end of the barrel was damaged enough to affect accuracy noticeably, the rifle was counterbored during rearsenaling - basically, the barrel was bored out down to undamaged rifling. My '46 is counterbored and very accurate. You'll be able to look down the barrel from the business end (with the bolt out, or at least open, of course) and see if it's counterbored - the first 1-3 inches of the barrel will be a larger diameter with no rifling, and then it'll "step" down to a smaller diameter with rifling.
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