M1 Garand's Younger Brother

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My cynicism tells me that Springfield must have donated some recent money to the NRA to push some articles as SA will probably be having a sale soon for tax season.....

But not too derail, I do love some classic M14s. I really want one of those Italian Beretta BM59s. I know not a true M1a/m14, but all the same in form factor.
 
I earned my Distinguished Rifleman's badge and a Regional Gold with an M1a, and I have many fond memories of the rifle.

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While I agree that anything a commercial publication does is for the advertisers, because that is their business model. Since the 1880's starting with the Ladies Home Journal, the subscription price is only "earnest" money demanded from the subscriber. It probably does not cover the full cost of publication. In print publications make their profits, and they only exist for profits, from advertising. The fact of the matter is, the articles are there so you will look at the ads, and in many cases, the articles are ads, or "infomercials". Very few actually know this.

However, I still think the M14/M1a action a better rifle than the AR15. I prefer the cartridge. It was a well developed and professionally developed round. I went through three barrels on the pictured rifle, I had only one malfunction and it was due to my ammunition. You don't need to, and you should not, push pressures in this cartridge for either accuracy or range. However the AR15 is loaded, typically, a half grain down from blowing primers. It is always on the edge and therefore, you go over the edge a lot. The Army Ordnance Bureau has gone dark on their specs, but based on the smattering of reports, they are now loading their ammunition almost to the old proof pressures of the old 5.56 mm. A 7.62 round is very lethal, and has a great range, running at 45,000 psia in a M1a. Which is probably the pressure range of most of my rounds. And, you don't rip rims, or have stove pipes ejection problems. That enclosed loading part in the AR15 causes lots of problems. Rounds get jammed in there and you have to carry a Leatherman type tool to reach in the port to remove the stupid jammed cartridge. The M14 had reliable magazines, the greatest source of weakness for the AR15 has been magazines. In large part this is due to how straight the 5.56 cartridge was. Take a look at the taper of short rounds, and for short rounds, the 5.56 is very straight. That ought to tell you something. When the most sophisticated armament engineers in the world (PRC Ordnance Bureau) created their intermediate round, their round has more taper than the US 5.56. It also has a nice thick rim and their rifles use steel cases without function problems.

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The American 5.56 mm round was a wild cat created by Bob Hutton at his ranch. Bob Hutton was a wealthy publisher and gun enthusiast. He used no analytical tools to examine feed, extraction, expansion or contraction. He did not even have pressure gauges, he estimated pressures with a paper slide rule called the Powell Computer. He had no idea of port pressures. He had a chronograph which was unusual in the day, pushed a 55 grain bullet 3300 fps, and his round would penetrate a steel pot WW2 helmet at 500 yards. For Bob, those criteria were the Gold Standard of excellence for a military round. I used to be mad at him, but, even if this was only a vanity project, he was about the only American working on an intermediate round. The unfortunate thing was it became the service round for the US Armies and the immaturity of the M16 and the 5.56 killed a lot of good American boys. It did make a lot of profits for the Industrial sector, and that is all that counts.

Stoner's magazines were initially designed to be lightweight, cheap, and throwaway, and it has only until polymer material technology advanced enough, which was around 2000, that there are some durable and reliable M16 magazines. M14 magazines have all been reliable if they are mil spec.

I like the open top design of the M14, rounds eject and don't bounce around. If there is a jam, you can get your hands in there and clear the problem without having to carry a pair of needle nosed pliers.

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If a primer blows, or crud gets in the trigger mechanism, you can pull it out and clean it very quickly. This is a Garand trigger group, the M14 was a product improved version, the basics are there .


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this is very easy to remove from the rifle and the open architecture allows easy cleaning. Shoot enough NRA Across the course matches and you will have, and see, individuals whose AR15's went down because the primer blew out and fell into the lower. I had to leave a match, go to the pavilion, where I took brass hammers, brass punches and needle nosed pliers, to remove the trigger springs and pins to fish out a primer that was jamming my trigger mechanism. It would not shake out. Most shooters would have to go looking for an Armorer in that situation, and I am unaware of an Armorer being assigned to every combat patrol.

I talked to lots of Vietnam veterans and the M14's were dirt tolerant and extremely reliable. The early M16's were jam a matics that killed a lot of GI's, and even as they were product improved, they still require much more attention and maintenance. Foreign countries only use the things if they are given to them as foreign aid. Free is hard to beat. The elites don't care if they loose a couple of enlisted men once and while because the weapon is not that reliable and takes a high degree of maintenance, all that matters is that the weapon was free.

The AR10 is a big rifle, you can put a folding stock on a M1a and have a very compact 308.

As long as you full length resize, size your ammunition with a small base die, use the least sensitive primer you can find (CCI #34's) and use loads appropriate for the gas system,the M1a type rifle is very reliable with reloads.

Also, always feed from the magazine. Press single rounds into the magazine. The drag helps slow the forward bolt velocity and reduces the chance of an in battery, or out of battery, slamfire.
 
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I was in the US Navy before they switched to M-16s. I was a Gunner’s Mate Missile but I also worked in the Ship’s Armory and I was the duty GM assigned to the motor whale boats during underway replenishments and helicopter flight ops. It was my job to use an M-14 to keep sharks away from people in the water in case we had a helo crash, man overboard or some other incident. I spent many many hours with my M-14. At first I didn’t care for that big hunk of metal and wood. After a time I became very comfortable with it and grew to truly admire it when shooting for quals or just to burn up ammo in “refamiliarization training” as our Gunnery Chief called it.

I have considered buying an M1A for many years. I used to own an M1 Garand, but I gave it to my daughter. I still may get one. Who knows.
 
I went through basic at Ft Ord CA humping an M-14, and learned to love it. Our ranges were on the beach, we shot out into the ocean, and I saw several rifles dropped in the sand and hastily picked up before a Sgt. could see it. They all functioned perfectly.

I engaged targets out to 600m and took an expert rifleman's badge with it.

Wood, steel, box magazines, and 30 cal. forever! lol
 
I went through basic at Ft Ord CA humping an M-14, and learned to love it. Our ranges were on the beach, we shot out into the ocean, and I saw several rifles dropped in the sand and hastily picked up before a Sgt. could see it. They all functioned perfectly.

I engaged targets out to 600m and took an expert rifleman's badge with it.

Wood, steel, box magazines, and 30 cal. forever! lol

So how did that work? Did the targets float on something....how was the score done....motor boats from the beach.....does not seem like it would work very well.
 
Personally I have looked at the M1A's for quite some time.....but always passed on them. Not impressed with the springfield versions....and the others are a bit much for me.

Personally owning every american rifle save a Johnson and the "M14" going from the trapdoor to now I do need it to round things out.....and I have Johnson money saved up so any of the "M14's" would be easy to grab right now.

But I sit on the fence with it all....the FAL has WAY more history to it, and really was the right arm of the west and is still in use many places today....the M14....the US and that is about it.

I would like to grab one, but I do think it will be a little like an expensive AR or 1022....I feel I will find it over hyped by the fanboi crowd and it will sit in the back of the safe.....I think I will try a FAL first.....and perhaps do it up in baby poo brown/green just for a bit of interesting history to go along with it.

But if I come across a M1A for a price that is not flat stupid I will grab it.
 
Personally I have looked at the M1A's for quite some time.....but always passed on them. Not impressed with the springfield versions....and the others are a bit much for me.

Personally owning every american rifle save a Johnson and the "M14" going from the trapdoor to now I do need it to round things out.....and I have Johnson money saved up so any of the "M14's" would be easy to grab right now.

But I sit on the fence with it all....the FAL has WAY more history to it, and really was the right arm of the west and is still in use many places today....the M14....the US and that is about it.

I would like to grab one, but I do think it will be a little like an expensive AR or 1022....I feel I will find it over hyped by the fanboi crowd and it will sit in the back of the safe.....I think I will try a FAL first.....and perhaps do it up in baby poo brown/green just for a bit of interesting history to go along with it.

But if I come across a M1A for a price that is not flat stupid I will grab it.
Sometimes I run rapid fire drills with PTR G3 style rifles, M1A, Saiga 308, and several AR10's. For me the G3 is the quickest shooting albeit with poor ergos. The M1A can be made to do anything the others can, with a little practice You can fire it very rapidly. It is a very nice rifle.
 
I really like the looks of the scout squad M1A, (wood stock, 18" barrel). The Tanker/Socom 16 one is just a bit too short, and the other M1A models are really big with the 22" barrel and the flash hider. Maybe someday if I could just save up about 2K...

Like it's namesake, the Mini-14 is pretty much a smaller M-14/M1A action. I have two Garands and a personally owned Mini-14 and Mini-30, and I am issued a Mini-14 16" as a patrol rifle. Even with the relatively straight-wall .223 case design not lending itself to they type of loading/extraction ease of the 7.62x39, I've found the Mini-14 to be extremely reliable as long as two things are understood; You have to use Ruger factory mags and you can't pull back on the mag to steady yourself when shooting like you can with the magwell of an AR.

Also, with the newer guns you have to blue locktite the rear sight adjustment screws or you'll have them go loose and your zero will wander. This target below certainly won't win any matches, but was a demo we did to show students in a rifle instructor course that an open-sighted patrol rifle with a 50-yard zero can get hits on a torso out to 300 yards. We shot 4-shot strings starting at 100, 150, 200, 250 then 300 yards (I was using a 20-round mag). You would start at the target, turn and run to 100, go prone, shoot 4, run to 150, go prone, shoot 4, run to 200, go prone, shoot 4, etc. It really started to wander off to the left starting at the 150 yard distance and because the holes were so tiny I didn't notice until I got back up to the target that it walked nearly clean off the board. When I checked the rear ghost ring it was wobbling and far off to the left. Apparently the sight screws had come loose and as they were backing out the ring drifted away. :cuss:

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The M14/M1A has more solid sights and doesn't seem to have that type of pickiness with the mags, it seems that any GI-spec mag will work and work...which is nice. :thumbup: With one of those I am sure that I would've done better on this drill than I did with the Mini-14.

The Garand-inspired M-14 / M1A is one great rifle for sure!

Stay safe.
 
So how did that work? Did the targets float on something....how was the score done....motor boats from the beach.....does not seem like it would work very well.
As I mentioned, our ranges were on the beach, the ocean was the backdrop. It seemed a little strange to me at the time that a passing boat could theoretically be hit, perhaps it was restricted area on charts, but that's how I remember it.

The base beer hall was on a cliff over the ocean, somehow I remember that also.
 
The base beer hall was on a cliff over the ocean, somehow I remember that also

Yep, every good dogface remembers the important landmarks such as mess hall, PX, beer garden......all those critical services. :rofl:

Regards,
hps
 
Neat pictures with the Franklin Mountains in the background.

Dad was assigned to the Vietnamese Language School at Biggs Field (adjacent to Ft. Bliss) in 1968, just prior to his tour in 'Nam 69-70. I was in 7th grade when we landed there. There was a mock VC village on the slopes of North Mt. Franklin, and us kids used to wander up there. When an MP Jeep would come up the the hill to roust us out of there, we would just hide in the tunnels and evade them until they got tired and went back downhill.

We also picked up lots of useful "souvenirs" like smoke grenades, artillery simulators, etc. I, along with several other classmates, had been able to scrounge some M14 mags along with ammo. During HS, we were issued M14's in ROTC. I felt somewhat secure having the ability to defend my community in the wake of a "Red Dawn" type of event by having that ammo. I was not alone in that regard. A couple of times we took those M14's to the range at Ft. Bliss, for familiarization firing.
 
I don't the the USAF ever issued M-14's. But, at least one intrepid airman "found" one after a very nasty failure of his M-16 (no not an A1). Yes, the POS M16 was cleaned and lubed properly. I never looked back. It never failed to fire.
 
Ahhh, that's scenic Dona Ana Range, alright. The only range I ever shot on that dust devils had the right of way when passing between the 600 yard firing line and the pits.:)

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Bliss was not much for scenery when we shot the far southwest regional matches and stayed in transient barracks at Bliss in 1962.
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The mess hall there, however, displayed an interesting sign which read, "The best mess hall in the Continental US Army". I figured it was just propaganda and questioned the mess Sgt. about his claim. It was a fact they had entered a competition and won that title and the food/service was indeed the best I ever experienced.

When I asked him if there was a mess hall at the range he laughed (there was nothing taller than a ground squirrel out there then) but asked how many men on the team and offered to send a crew out to feed us if asked....I asked, and next day a deuce and a half drives up just before lunch, drops the tail gate and the mess crew bailed out, dug a pit, built a fire and grilled steaks for our AMU (only). Not sure what the rest of the teams ate, but we were the recipient of more than a few jealous glances. It pays to check out all the important amenities upon arrival, I always say. :rofl:

Regards,
hps
 
Anyone go through Fort Bliss?
Sure did. Christmas time, 1967. My company was in the newer barracks, not in Logan Heights. I'm the guy in the foreground, lower left pic. I remember looking up after the photographer snapped the pic. Every pic you posted is in my book, pretty sure they were stock photos. At the back of the book there are photos taken of us when we cycled through. It was fun. Sgt. Martinez was a Mexican, Sgt. Summers, a Mormon, and their language was....errr.....quite diverse and polar opposites.

I was issued a 14 in Nam, and I had to guard it with my life. The grunts would steal them, because they were more powerful and reliable.
 

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Sure did. Christmas time, 1967. My company was in the newer barracks, not in Logan Heights. I'm the guy in the foreground, lower left pic. I remember looking up after the photographer snapped the pic. Every pic you posted is in my book, pretty sure they were stock photos. At the back of the book there are photos taken of us when we cycled through. It was fun. Sgt. Martinez was a Mexican, Sgt. Summers, a Mormon, and their language was....errr.....quite diverse and polar opposites.

I was issued a 14 in Nam, and I had to guard it with my life. The grunts would steal them, because they were more powerful and reliable.

The old Fort Bliss musuem is still there. And there are old tanks on corners now, some were probably moving when you were there, but they are historical objects. These are pictures from 2019, maybe you recognize some of the places. The monument to LtCol W.W.S Bliss is strange. It does not have a statue on top. Maybe it was removed. Street names that used to be the names of Confederate Generals have been changed to names less troublesome in today's society.
 

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Street names that used to be the names of Confederate Generals have been changed to names less troublesome in today's society.

I was always impressed with the practice of naming US Military posts in the former Confederacy after Confederate Generals, like Lee, Bragg, Hood, etc. A recognition on the part of the brass that the "former unpleasantness" was a family squabble. We are losing a considerable amount of our history, and are poorer for it.
 
Interesting thread here....... Got my first "Garands younger brother", AKA an M-14, from my Uncle Sam in Sept. 1969 along with the basic marksmanship training that has served me well over the years. It was the first .308 I'd ever fired. Fast forward to 1989 when I picked up a civilian version built on a Smith Enterprises receiver that actually says "M-14" on it even though it has no provision for a selector switch. Rest of it is built with GI parts. Shot NRA High Power with it for most of the 1990's. Then it went into "semi-retirement" until I fully retired in the spring of 2016. Still gets out once or twice a year, for perhaps 20 rounds or so. Still using up handloads from the latter 1990's. Also have a lot of brass, bullets, powder, & CCI #34 primers, (mil-spec) so ammo's no problem. Always enjoyed shooting the M-14 and its older brother the M-1, ( got one of those from CMP in 1996). Thinning out the gun collection in retirement but those two aren't going away for some time yet. Or else my son may inherit them. IMG_1950.JPG
 
The M-14 was a great gun. Very accurate. But you really didn't want to hump the bush with it and 200 rounds of ammunition.
 
When did the polymer M14 stock come out? M14 was replaced by M16 shortly, why they still put out polymer stock for it?
 
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