Bullet type.... Does it really matter?
- Thread starter Texasgrillchef
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Bell was extremely well versed as to where to put the bullet on an elephant. Basically, walk up next to them and shoot them in the ear canal. That was the fastest way to the brain. The front of the skull on a bull can be near 3' think before you get to the brain. Just because it can be done or has been done, doesn't mean it should be done.
T.R.
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I've had good luck downing game with round nose soft tip bullets. They hit very hard!
TR
TR
If you look at the Wound Ballistic Journals,
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE
the links of which were posted by @Hummer70 in this thread
Wound Ballistics Everything you ever wanted to know and didn't know what to ask
bullet type makes a difference. There are discussions of hitting the central nervous system, which is very effective and probably does not make much of a difference on the bullet used, assuming it makes of mess of the brain. But if you are trying to something that makes the biggest through hole, then bullet construction is important.
That has always been a problem with bullet makers. I have had the core come out of a Norma 30 caliber, the jacket stayed put, it was the core that penetrated and caused the deer to bleed out, very quickly at that. The shot was under 15 yards, so the bullet was probably traveling too fast to retain integrity. It might have held together better at 200 yards. But, until recently, all cup and core bullets actually perform best in a limited velocity range
Dave Scovill in Handloader 318, "Revisiting Bullet Performance" wrote this "One of the most interest facets of Mr. Scuichetti's work is that the vast majority of what we might call "hunting" bullets deliver optimum performance in terms of penetration potential and weight retention with an impact velocity window ranging from 2,500 fps to 2,200 fps."
I forget the exact lower level limit expansion, it might have been around 1700 fps where traditional cup and core bullets don't expand. When a bullet drops below that speed, it might as well be a FMJ.
Head shots, not all head shots are fatal. You have to knock out the brain. There are still other parts to the head that can be ruined, and yet the animal will run off and die a suffering death.
This is a WW1 Soldier being fitted with a medical prosthetic mask. His lower face has been so ruined that he must have been hideous to look at, causing negative reactions in public. You can tell the mask starts around his eyes and goes down to his jaw. So for the guy to have some sort of regular life, he is being fitted with a special mask.
these are faces where the mask is in process.
obviously these are all "head shots", and just as obviously these victims of modern warfare lived afterwards,even though some of the wounds are horrible.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE
the links of which were posted by @Hummer70 in this thread
Wound Ballistics Everything you ever wanted to know and didn't know what to ask
bullet type makes a difference. There are discussions of hitting the central nervous system, which is very effective and probably does not make much of a difference on the bullet used, assuming it makes of mess of the brain. But if you are trying to something that makes the biggest through hole, then bullet construction is important.
That has always been a problem with bullet makers. I have had the core come out of a Norma 30 caliber, the jacket stayed put, it was the core that penetrated and caused the deer to bleed out, very quickly at that. The shot was under 15 yards, so the bullet was probably traveling too fast to retain integrity. It might have held together better at 200 yards. But, until recently, all cup and core bullets actually perform best in a limited velocity range
Dave Scovill in Handloader 318, "Revisiting Bullet Performance" wrote this "One of the most interest facets of Mr. Scuichetti's work is that the vast majority of what we might call "hunting" bullets deliver optimum performance in terms of penetration potential and weight retention with an impact velocity window ranging from 2,500 fps to 2,200 fps."
I forget the exact lower level limit expansion, it might have been around 1700 fps where traditional cup and core bullets don't expand. When a bullet drops below that speed, it might as well be a FMJ.
Head shots, not all head shots are fatal. You have to knock out the brain. There are still other parts to the head that can be ruined, and yet the animal will run off and die a suffering death.
This is a WW1 Soldier being fitted with a medical prosthetic mask. His lower face has been so ruined that he must have been hideous to look at, causing negative reactions in public. You can tell the mask starts around his eyes and goes down to his jaw. So for the guy to have some sort of regular life, he is being fitted with a special mask.
these are faces where the mask is in process.
obviously these are all "head shots", and just as obviously these victims of modern warfare lived afterwards,even though some of the wounds are horrible.
Terry Vincent
Member
Your response suggest you know more than Bell. It may be helpful for you to expand your knowledge by reading one of his three bio’s, if you haven’t already. Just for the record, his meat rifle was a 6.5x55, shooting of course FMJ projectiles. These plethora of plains game were not shot at three feet, nor were they all head shots.
Bell also shot many buffalo with a .22 Savage Hi Power, using lung shots and shooting the herd bull first causing the rest of the herd to mill in confusion. He fed many villagers with this technique, just because he could.
I don’t know your experience(s) with FMJ’s on game or bipeds. I only know mine, and can state from those empirical experiences FMJ are lethal, just like Bell’s experiences prove.
Let’s face the facts. In the early 1900s bullet technology was rather crude (for lack of a better term). Cup and core expanding bullets were of a low quality and clearly an FMJ would have a much higher likelihood of staying together upon impact. Bell was an expert shot, clearly and his choice in firearms/loads obviously provided adequate penetration. Does that make them a good choice? Not necessarily. In his hands they were deadly, but that doesn’t mean the visiting hunter laying down five figures for an elephant hunt should choose a classic FMJ. What hindsight doesn’t offer is a look at how many elephants Bell lost, and we probably may never know. The nose profile of the bullets he used would likely produce a pretty unimpressive wound channel. Again, good for his purposes, but nothing anyone with much experience would recommend I would think. JMHO.
Texasgrillchef
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because I won’t take a shot unless I am 99% sure of making a successful kill. I am never 100% sure of anything! Except Death and Taxes... and idiots in government positions.
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Texasgrillchef
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I personally have never doubted the killing power of an FMJ of any caliber. The militaries of the world use them and have killed millions with them. So anyone who doubts the killing power of an FMJ has never seen war.
Yeah, but they’d all rather be using hollow-points.
skeeterfogger
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Bullet type/caliber use choice resides in the game, terrain and range.
As far as range. Up to 150 yards mostly clear terrain for white tail a 243 would be my choice.
More dense or same and double range 270 or 06.
Very dense with openings out to 400, 06.
Regardless of proper hunting bullet placement, placement, placement.
I've use sp core lock all my life. See absolutely no reason to change.
I did change placement long ago. Got tired of tracking using shoulder point heart shot. Switched to 3rd rib from aft center mass double lung. It takes right at 5 seconds for vision failure and dizziness. By 6-7 unconscious. From impact to bolting, effects are at 3-4. Most just hump up or spin and down. No more tracking. 10 feet at most. Farthest was 20 but 10 of that was a down hill slide.
Perhaps if one believes they need special bullet their real need is placement practice.
As far as range. Up to 150 yards mostly clear terrain for white tail a 243 would be my choice.
More dense or same and double range 270 or 06.
Very dense with openings out to 400, 06.
Regardless of proper hunting bullet placement, placement, placement.
I've use sp core lock all my life. See absolutely no reason to change.
I did change placement long ago. Got tired of tracking using shoulder point heart shot. Switched to 3rd rib from aft center mass double lung. It takes right at 5 seconds for vision failure and dizziness. By 6-7 unconscious. From impact to bolting, effects are at 3-4. Most just hump up or spin and down. No more tracking. 10 feet at most. Farthest was 20 but 10 of that was a down hill slide.
Perhaps if one believes they need special bullet their real need is placement practice.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
No, they are obviously all head injuries, but not all were head shots. Some were bullet wounds. Some were shrapnel. Some were from flame throwers.
https://nowthisnews.com/videos/news/anna-coleman-ladd-made-masks-for-wounded-world-war-i-veterans
Loyalist Dave
Member
Ah but the question when it comes to FMJ is not does it have killing power or simply, "Does it kill?". The question when it comes to FMJ and hunting is "How fast does the damage caused incapacitate the animal, leading to death?"
IF you think the FMJ is viable as an all around hunting bullet, then you've never seen an animal mortally wounded with such, but not yet expired.
LD
buck460XVR
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Exactly.
Also, FMJ stand up better to harsh warfare conditions and there are others things to penetrate than just tissue and bone. Stating that FMJ bullets are not lethal is pure folly, but for amount of damage done to tissue, one cannot really get better than some form of expanding bullet, especially from high powered rifles. In the past to make a bigger hole before expanding bullets were the norm, folks just used a bigger caliber/diameter bullet.
My question is, how can you be even 99% sure of a successful kill when you admit to taking shots thru thick brush? Sorry, but to most experienced hunters, that is a low percentage shot and one most ethical hunters don't take. Low percentage shots add up to less than 100% successful kills, unless one is excessively lucky. Even then it's just a matter of time. Seems to me choice of bullet in this scenario, is a moot point. JMTCs.
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The militaries of the world use FMJ bullets because it’s a war crime to use expanding bullets against other human beings. NOT because they are more effective at maiming and killing, rather because they do less damage in general than non expanding bullets.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule77
(Edit to give Buck credit for this comment, I didn’t see his post prior to mine) but I’ll leave mine with link to the ruling.
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We are talking about entirely different circumstances here. And entirely different bullets types between what Bell used and a modern military FMJ bullet. Bell’s bullet of choice was a 173 gr cupronickel full patch (solid) which was a round nosed bullet and shaped exactly like most round nosed solids of today are shaped. That heavy for caliber bullet of that shape tends to give excellent straight line penetration and is not prone to tumble like a spitzer style FMJ can and often does. Punching through an elephants skull to hit the brain and killing a man with a body shot are not really comparable.
I have read all of Bell’s books Several times and seem to remember his 6.5 of choice was a .256 Mannlicher using 160 gr bullets both full patch and expanding. I also vaguely remember his mentioning .22 High power but it’s been a while since I’ve read any Bell. Do you remember which book it was which he mentioned that? I need to go back and read that again.
A couple of things that “Bellers” never mention was that Bell does talk about using a .400 NE for following up wounded elephant in the thick stuff. Which obviously means not all of his shots were on the money. The reason we all know about Bell is not because he was a hunter, it’s because he was a hunter who also was a very good author and he wrote about his exploits. There are many men who have four and five times the number of elephant kills under their belts. Ron Thompson and Richard Harland to name a few. Ron killed something over 5,000 and Richard was somewhere above 4,000. Both were cropping officers for Rhodesian Parks. They were amongst teams of cropping officers who all had multiple thousand elephant kills. The park service issued .404’s, heavy doubles and eventually after the ammo became extinct for those the standard issue was a M-70 in .458 Win Mag.
Richard talks about how they would train and progress a young Parks shooter. It was after they had about 100 elephant kills under their belts and were 100% confident of making brain shots that they were allowed to start using their FN FAL Govt issued rifles to shoot elephant and they used their .458’s given the chance and availability. It doesn’t take all that much penetration for a side brain shot on an elephant. But if the poop hits the fan a frontal brain shot gets seriously iffy with a light caliber and especially with a spitzer that doesn’t give straight line penetration.
While Bell was one guy who wrote several outstanding books on African commercial hunting and adventure. He’s also the only one you’ll read about who recommends a light caliber for elephant. Multiple thousand other pros recommend at the very minimum a .400 cal using quality 400 gr or heavier solids and many very seasoned PH’s recommend a .500 NE at a bare minimum for back up work on elephant.
One thing is certain there are very few if any hunters in todays world that will ever come close to shooting the minimum recommended 100 elephant with brain shots to become effective enough to do it with a light rifle. And if they are doing it they are using a heavy rifle by law or they are poachers.
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I’d just like to mention for clarity sake that the 7x57 and the .275 Rigby are the exact same round the only difference is the name. Kind of like .30-30 and .30 WCF or a .30 Govt 1906 and a .30-06.
Just to expand upon the solid nose profile discussion. The trend over the last ten years or so has been flat-nosed solids in rifles, a concept they adapted from handgun hunters who have been using flat-nosed profiles for decades. Round nosed solids don’t reliably track straight (but definitely straighter than spitzer nose profiles) and don’t produce the wound channel of a bullet with a larger meplat. In my opinion, the bullet is everything.
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I was going to mention that but figured I’d keep it relevant to Bell and modern spitzer style FMJs. I’ve had round nosed solids tumble and wind up backwards in a carcass. But that’s after they’ve traveled through a bunch of bone and stuff.
I’ve switched to flat nosed solids for serious DG work because they are better than traditional round nosed.
Terry Vincent
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Regarding
Regarding Bell, he wrote three books: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter, 1923 and Karamojo Safari, 1949.
The third, Bell of Africa, was published in 1960 following his death in 1954.
I recall he used the .22 High Power on his safari to west Africa. Famine was rampant and he fed a substantial number of villagers after shooting 23 Buffalo in one herd. I believe it was his second book, Karamojo Safari, where he related this event. As an aside, the .22 Hi Power remains a popular cartridge in Europe while it is virtually nonexistent in the states. The 70 grain bullet at 3100 FPS is adequate and meets minimum energy for smaller deer and hogs. I saw two rifles chambered for this cartridge while working in Kurdistan in 2011. They were in a collection owned by a Kurdish colonel I was working with in Sulaymaniyah. Both rifles were perfect examples of converted Mausers.
As it has been noted, flat point solids for DG are a wise choice. My preference is a 45-70 loaded to velocities specific for the game sought. This results in modern rifles for higher end pressures (Ruger No1), and lever actions for low and medium pressures. FMJ and hard cast lead, both with flat, big meplats guarantee clean, quick kills.
Regarding Bell, he wrote three books: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter, 1923 and Karamojo Safari, 1949.The third, Bell of Africa, was published in 1960 following his death in 1954.
I recall he used the .22 High Power on his safari to west Africa. Famine was rampant and he fed a substantial number of villagers after shooting 23 Buffalo in one herd. I believe it was his second book, Karamojo Safari, where he related this event. As an aside, the .22 Hi Power remains a popular cartridge in Europe while it is virtually nonexistent in the states. The 70 grain bullet at 3100 FPS is adequate and meets minimum energy for smaller deer and hogs. I saw two rifles chambered for this cartridge while working in Kurdistan in 2011. They were in a collection owned by a Kurdish colonel I was working with in Sulaymaniyah. Both rifles were perfect examples of converted Mausers.
As it has been noted, flat point solids for DG are a wise choice. My preference is a 45-70 loaded to velocities specific for the game sought. This results in modern rifles for higher end pressures (Ruger No1), and lever actions for low and medium pressures. FMJ and hard cast lead, both with flat, big meplats guarantee clean, quick kills.
I’ve found hardcast bullets to be unreliable in large game (1,000-lbs plus), and I’m not pushing them to rifle velocities.
skeeterfogger
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I saw an old film of a native shooting a cull elephant for food for his village. He was using a BP 69cal. He hit it in head from direct front. It did die but not after being very pissed off. The bullet did not penetrate the bone. It shattered the POI and spider cracked. They were lucky IMO. The elephant had plenty of time to do some real damage had it chose to.
FMJ will work, but there again is placement. With out it any type round can fail to be quick.
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It’s pretty unusual for an elephant to die from a head shot that doesn’t penetrate the brain. I’d like to see that footage.
skeeterfogger
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I'm
Sure it's still out there but I saw it a long time ago and honestly probably just ran across it by accident. It would probably take a lot of research to find it. The time line was way back. It was like some of the stock footage you see in those old King Solomon and Tarzan BnW films. I figure it was from late 1910s, 1920s. Pretty grainy and movements were a tad fast. The musket/rifle was longer than the native was tall. Seems I remember he had another guy supporting it out front.
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Sounds like a neat piece of footage.
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I’ve seen several hard cast “failures” on big hogs. I say “failure” because they killed the hog but the bullets broke into two in both cases and would have been a serious problem on a thick skinned DG animal. One was . 44 mag rounds shot out of a lever gun the other was either a .45 Colt or a .44 out of a revolver. It’s been a while.
I’ve had super good luck with copper monolithic solids. I’ve also had good luck with steel core solids.
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