Lehigh Xtreme bullets

Status
Not open for further replies.
IIRC, the FBI selection criteria specifies a bullet that expands at least 1.5 times it's unexpanded diameter.

Yes. Note that the standard does not specify anything about wounding, just penetration and expansion. That's notable for two reasons. First, bullets that do a good job wounding but do not expand, could never meet the standard. The standard excludes them without any regard to their actual terminal effect. They are simply not even considered unless the standard is completely overturned.

Second, a bullet could meet the expansion standard while still doing a poor job wounding or stopping a threat.

What mentioned in the earlier quoted paragraph was that because wounding or terminal effect is not part of the standard criteria whatsoever, the expansion requirement could be interpreted as part of the penetration demand. "I would even assert that it is penetration goals more than anything else that drive the current standard's demand for expansion."
 
The salient example would be Miami 1986. Now someone could say, well that was the "old FBI specification." Now it's better, right? Right?

Well considering there has been tremendous improvements on bullet tech since then. This resulting the FBI moving back to 9mm from 40S&W due to the bullet technology bringing 9mm up to standards that it couldn’t previously attain at the time.

A nearly 40 year old example is not much of evidence to bring up in this conversation given the advancements.
 
"FBI specification" is a moving target. It was 38 Special round nose. It was 9x19 Winchester Silvertips. It's been 10mm, then 40 S&W. Then it changed to 9mm again. Every time, they had it right, right? Or do they just have it right this time? This time is different?
 
This resulting the FBI moving back to 9mm from 40S&W due to the bullet technology bringing 9mm up to standards that it couldn’t previously attain at the time.
Yep.

"FBI specification" is a moving target.
I am speaking of the current specification for minimum and maximum penetration in calibrated ballistic gel, tested with specified barriers. There is also a recommendation for expansion. It is public information.

It was 38 Special round nose. It was 9x19 Winchester Silvertips. It's been 10mm, then 40 S&W. Then it changed to 9mm again.
Those were ammunition recommendations reflecting the technologies of the times, not specifications.

As I recall, the earlier requirements did not address maximum permissible penetration, and did not address expansion.
 
It's absurd to say that bullets that meet FBI specification cannot fail miserably, which is the contrapositive of what you wrote, "Bullets that 'fail miserably' would not meet FBI specifications."

Your statement has been proven wrong.
 
"Bullets that 'fail miserably' would not meet FBI specifications."

Your statement has been proven wrong.
Passing the tests is necessary for FBI acceptance--by definition

Of course, it is always possible for bullets to fail in the field. Can you cite any examples of how current FBI-spec bullets have failed, when, and under what circumstances?
 
Folks carry wadcutters for self defense. They are just expensive slightly altered wadcutters in my book. And I do carry them in my LC9, underwood defenders.
 
Were there any photos of actual wounds in tissue offered as proof of a "massive wound channel".

There's nothing "new" about the ARX design. I tested a similar bullet design 20 years ago.
QUOTE]
It looks relatively new to what you're showing.
The illustrations that you cited look nothing like the ARX round. As far as photos..there I've only read the accounts from journalists that have seen the devatation these rounds have created on swine head shots. I'm sure the inventor of the ARX round has real world accounts of the round in action..but, (only speculating here) it may be proprietary information with a foreign country's security forces.
 
The illustrations that you cited look nothing like the ARX round. As far as photos..there I've only read the accounts from journalists that have seen the devatation these rounds have created on swine head shots. I'm sure the inventor of the ARX round has real world accounts of the round in action..but, (only speculating here) it may be proprietary information with a foreign country's security forces.
They actually create a larger temporary cavity than ARX.

The flutes on the ARX's ogive do not displace soft tissues anywhere to the extent the THV bullets do.

Sadly, ARX is a gimmick that appeals to the uninformed and gullible.
 
So what you meant to say was that bullets that meet FBI specification do not fail FBI specification.
That's profound.
That is not what I said.

You said that bullets that have been tested for penetration in gel and with barriers and meet FBI requirements "fail miserably". That makes zero sense. If they passed the FBI testing protocol, they cannot have "failed miserably"-- by definition.

The FBI protocols are relied upon by the FBI, all non-military US Government agencies, and most law enforcement agencies.

One can debate whether meeting the barrier test protocols is an important requirement for civilian use; for example, Hornady Critical Duty rounds meet all of the barrier requirements, while Critical Defense rounds meet only the clothing tests. I would be happy with the latter. While both LEO and civilian use of deadly force are limited to self defense and the defense of others. I would get out of the area if the attackers put themselves behind barriers, but the duty of the LEO forbids that.

The DoD has different specifications for 9mm ammunition. The M1152 FMJ round has higher penetration than anything available on the civilian market, the need having to do with helmets, etc, and it would not pass the FBI protocols. The M1153 Special Purpose round is intended for use where over-penetration would be a problem. It is a JHP round.
 
New test on youtube of the 380acp Xtreme bullets. When I used to have a 42, the ARX was my preferred round. I still think the ARX beat the Lehigh rounds in 380.
 
might as well add to the show:

a 68 grain bullet going 2200 fps out of a sig 357 is impressive; more impressive is stopping in a gel block within 19 inches; more impressive is stopping at 17 inches after going through body armor.

murf
 
might as well add to the show:

a 68 grain bullet going 2200 fps out of a sig 357 is impressive; more impressive is stopping in a gel block within 19 inches; more impressive is stopping at 17 inches after going through body armor.

murf

Probably the most interesting Xtreme Defender round out there.

The worst one, that I have noticed, is the 38/357 cartridges. They get much less velocity than the box says in revolvers. OTOH, the recoil is much less than any other product. I mentioned before, the 100gr @900fps is pleasant to shoot from my Ultralight Snub for my daughter. Although, I wouldn't expect much bite than bark. It's better than nothing for a 110lbs little lady if the mace isn't effective.

Pictured here with 50gr Liberty Civil Defense, another low recoiling, questionable performance round. PXL_20221204_193303055~2.jpg

I took back the snub, changed the grips. I prefer to use heavier lead.
PXL_20221218_050121566.jpg

I think the light rounds are going to be in storage for a very long time.

The 120gr Xtreme Hunters 357mag are also getting much less velocity than the box claims. At 1500fps from a snub, they might be a good low recoil choice instead of carrying 38special +,p in a light weight snub like the Taurus 605. Still, I don't see a benefit vs a 158gr 38+P. I think the Xtreme series are complete duds in 38/357, unless you want the absolute lowest recoil in an air weight 38 snub "purse gun"
 
These are great from a pistol cartridge carbine, too.

Good performance up close, reduced penetration outside of the home.
 
Headshots would indicate nothing.

A headshot on a beef indicates a whole lot. Have you never killed beef? The shot goes down their skull and throat into the body. Then you do an autopsy of sorts while cutting up the carcass. Seems like there would be no better indicator

As far as "Xtreme penetration" which is what I ordered in 200 gr 44 mag (as opposed to their xtreme defense) I suspect I'll learn more from headshots than anything else. If they don't blow through a deer broadsided then I say they do nothing an xtp or hard cast can't do. Plenty often both of those pass through.

I say the "jello" and " water propeller" and all that is BS. But I do want to test the penetration
 
...that is relevant to shooting beef in the head.

For SD,the defender will have to shoot at a moving target and will likely shoot center mass.

Shooting a living breathing animal has gave me far more confidence in my bullet selecting than other people shooting gel, prickly pear, milk jugs full of water, or old dead pig. Lol. The fact the target is moving makes no difference in how the bullet performs

Center mas has the sternum. Head shots happen too. Hip shots etc etc Not all that much different than the skull of a beef steer. We aren't going out and shooting our 2k lb bulls for beef so it's not like shooting through an armor plate. I have used the 10 and 44 though on older cattle that had broken necks in falls, or just got down for unknown reasons. Never did the "autopsy" on those though. I expect there wasn't much penetration after the thick skull

I've used xtp, hard cast, linotype, winchester rangers, and hst. All performed like you would think. The latter two expanded the others just plowed deeper. All did their job and there wasn't a ton of difference. I still don't believe in magic bullets
 
No, but has everything to do with where iit is likely to strike.

Yeah, so going through bone would be even more important id think since your not getting a perfect shot. A lucky head or hip shot would be better if the bullet can make it through. And if these things are sold mostly in "light for caliber" weighs then something magic better happen. ( the 44 is 200 grain which isn't particularly light for caliber, however)

I still say an hst, Ranger, gold dot etc is best. But if these go through a skull and leave a "jello" trail the neck and guts then maybe I'll be a believer. I think it's bs and will perform just like a hard cast or lino bullet

I'm betting i still carry my bonded rangers or hst after.

Just the advertising (Jelly and boat propulsion lol) is enough to make me not carry the lehigh. Plus I don't carry handloads.
 
I have a 140 grain copper mono (Barnes XPB) that shows consistently good penetration in any test I've ever seen -- my own or that of others (it's loaded by Barnes, Federal, Buffalo Bore, and others). I have expanded bullets that I would say are 0.68" in diameter. If I measure the outside of the petal to the outside of the opposite petal, it's more like 0.73" but that would only be at the tips of the petals. So the sectional density of the opened bullet is something like 140*0.68^2 or 0.43. Even if we were to take a 158 grain XTP expanded to .58" the sectional density is .067. That's a bullet that is known to penetrate denim and 22 to 24 inches of gel (with factory Hornady loads from typical revolvers).

The sectional density of a 120 grain bullet at .357" is .135 -- about twice that of the XTP. Even the sectional density of a 90 grain bullet at 9mm (.355") is 0.1 -- still more than the XTP. The wimpy 68 grain pill? 0.77 -- more than the 158 grain XTP.

Just like traditionally accepted bullet weights don't translate from fragmenting cup and core to monolithic designs that keep their integrity, traditional JHP bullet weights for handguns don't translate to non-expanding monolithics. We would have scoffed at 90 and certainly at 68 grain bullets for 9mm. Fackler railed on 115 grain 9mm bullets and the high-velocity "energy transfer" fad. But why? Where were these fast and light handgun bullets actually deficient? They were deficient in consistent penetration. They were vulnerable to blowing up on impact and under-penetration. Fackler preferred the 147 grain loads with their greater sectional density and low probability of under-penetrating.

Fackler and the heir of his theories SSA J. Buford Boone III established the current prevailing criteria of jelly penetration and expansion as the rule by which handgun ammo is judged. With these theories prevailing at the FBI (through Boone's influence), it has become the defacto standard for all high-volume US defensive handgun ammo makers. Non-expanding ammo could never meet the required criteria because "wounding" has become totally disregarded in favor of "expansion in gel." There is no "standard" or objective criteria for evaluating "wounding" whatsoever -- only penetration and expansion in gel.

Federal/Vista, for one, has shown a willingness to game the system. "We can make, with this modern technology, a bullet do just about anything we want it to do." -- Chris Laack, Product Line Manager for Handgun Ammunition for Federal/CCI/Speer. Witness the "30 Super Carry" -- I can't imagine Martin Fackler being impressed with a 100 grain 32 caliber projectile, but Federal has used its "modern technology" to make it do in gel what Fackler wanted it to do.

Do Xtreme Defense bullets show in any test lower penetration than what we could expect from bullets that meet FBI specification? Has even the comically light 68 grain 9mm showed poor penetration in gel tests?
 
Non-expanding ammo could never meet the required criteria because "wounding" has become totally disregarded in favor of "expansion in gel." There is no "standard" or objective criteria for evaluating "wounding" whatsoever -- only penetration and expansion in gel.
"Wounding", as defined by the destruction of critical internal body elements, depends on penetration and upon the bullet track. Nowhere have the forensic medical people listed any other "wounding" factors as important for defensive handgun effectiveness
Federal/Vista, for one, has shown a willingness to game the system.
How so? They strive to meet the requirements.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top