Lehigh Xtreme bullets

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How did Fackler develop his wound profile drawings?

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Were these drawings interpreted from the calibrated standard 10% gel he developed the spec for? How did he distinguish the temporary from the permanent wound cavity?
Fackler developed and validated his wound profiles by comparing wounding effects observed in freshly euthanized swine with wounding effects depicted in properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin. Biplaner X-rays and high speed cinematography equipment were used in addition to mechanical measurements and visual observations.

He also used data from actual shootings.

Fackler chose a 10% gelatin solution because it's half the cost of 20% solution and a standard refrigerator can be used to condition the gelatin to 39 degrees f.
 
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I've followed a guy's journey on another forum as he searched for the best, for him, handgun for bear country. He went through all the various big revolvers, but found them heavy and lacking capacity. He went through a few semi-autos (he's a Glock fan), but found many wouldn't reliably cycle rounds that would typically expect to be effective on large bears. He eventually settled on the HK USP in .45 Auto, but was shooting .45 Super out of the gun. The USP wasn't as shootable as his preferred Glock's, but functioned better with heavy, bear defense type ammo than the Glock's did.

His discovery of the Lehigh bullets changed his calculations a bit as he found these bullets could smash through heavy bone fairly reliably, even in smaller calibers. I think he now often carries a Gen 5 G22/G23 (he prefers Glock's but had feeding problems with other appropriate for bear rounds) loaded with Lehigh bullets. He's found these rounds feed well through his autos and provide the terminal performance he desires.

Same for me. I have boxes of 255gr hardcast and 230gr hollow points that I fire from a KKM Compensated barrel from a Glock 30S. All shoots well, except that I can have occasional jams due to my grip using the compensator.In other words, changes in my grip can cause malfunctions, which is worry some under emergency situations. I then decided to give these rounds a try when I was able to purchase them for 45% off.

I would not consider them to be superior to the other rounds.
255gr Hardcast 1075fps vs 200gr Xtreme Penetrator 1100fps
and
230gr Hollow Point 1100fps vs 135gr Xtreme Defender 1500fps

The Xtreme series fire with less recoil (at least in these 2 options) They both recoil almost exactly the same, compareable to a 185 gr +P, definitely less recoil than a 230gr +P, although, they are pretty load.

Based on some test results I have seen on the interweb, they have impressive results even in the +P variant. A big plus is that no modifications are needed for these 45super rounds in any handgun chambered in 45auto +P

And like the OP pointed out, starting out as a big caliber is a plus. Im more of a believer in higher mass in handgun bullets, a 200gr is not very low on mass for Dangerous game, it could possibly have been pushed faster, but Im sure Underwood has the intention to keep these rounds functioanl in unmodified 45auto handguns, or maybe even to keep them subsonic.
 
The temporary cavity is like 2" in diameter - it will only bruise tissues with no physical disruption.
like the pork ribs? i'm questioning your reasoning here when you equate a jel block to live animal tissue. i know everyone is free to have their own interpretation. it's just that mine is not yours.

murf
 
meaningless
Your assertion was clearly incorrect. What that may mean is debatable.
i'm questioning your reasoning here when you equate a jel block to live animal tissue. i know everyone is free to have their own interpretation. it's just that mine is not yours.
You have some learning too do.
nor do jel blocks
Properly calibrated (unlike the ones used in the amateur video), ballistic gel simulates live swine tissue.
 
Properly calibrated (unlike the ones used in the amateur video), ballistic gel simulates live swine tissue.
simulate isn't good enough here as, again, that is just an opinion (unless live swine have been shot which isn't going to happen). ballistics gel is not required here to make the point that the screw-tip bullets work as good or better than jacketed hollow point bullets. that is the bottom line here. deflections of "amateur videos" and "properly calibrated" can't hide the obvious.

murf
 
simulate isn't good enough here
What does that mean?
ballistics gel is not required here to make the point that the screw-tip bullets work as good or better than jacketed hollow point bullets. that is the bottom line here. deflections of "amateur videos" and "properly calibrated" can't hide the obvious.
The screw tip bullets do not, and at handgun velocities cannot, cause a larger diameter permanent wound cavity than JHPs of the same caliber that perform properly. wether they work "as good"as JHPs is another question, and it has not been answered.
 
like the pork ribs?
Thawed frozen processed pork ribs don't possess the same dynamic equivalency as a shot through the rib cage tissues of a freshly killed pig. It's up to you and Paul Harrell to prove to us that it does.

i'm questioning your reasoning here when you equate a jel block to live animal tissue. i know everyone is free to have their own interpretation. it's just that mine is not yours.
Since 1985, properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin has been proved to possess the same dynamic equivalency as typical live soft tissues. (See: Fackler, Martin L. M.D., and Malinowski, John A., B.S., "The Wound Profile: Illustration of the Missile-tissue Interaction", Journal of Trauma, Volume 25, Number 6, 1985, pp. 522-529. Unfortunately, this paper isn't available for free online, however, interested persons will find a way to obtain a copy.)

Since then, properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin has been verified and validated by many others to possess the same dynamic equivalency as typical soft tissues. For example, Duncan MacPherson discusses the physics involved:


Tissue Simulation Requirements
2) Dynamic Equivalence (p. 68)
Forces are produced on the bullet when it traverses tissue, and any satisfactory tissue simulant must produce very similar forces on the bullet under the same conditions. This dynamic equivalence can never be exact, but must be nearly so to allow proper interpretation of test results. The obvious conceptual problem with this requirement is that the variations in tissue homogeneity cannot be modeled by the homogenous tissue simulant. This problem is not serious in practice, and is satisfactorily dealt with by making “typical” soft tissue the design standard. This approach is satisfactory in practical testing because soft tissue inhomogeneities can be dealt with by conservatism in interpretation of test results. No attempt is made to model bones or the effects of bullet impact on bones; this is not an irrelevant issue, but it is one that is dealt with separately.
Tissue Simulant Dynamic Equivalence (p. 69)

It is not easy to prove that the forces produced on the bullet when it traverses tissue simulant are really similar to the forces produced by tissue under the same conditions. Dynamic equivalence can never be exact, but similar penetration depth in simulant and “average” soft tissue over a range of velocities is a very good demonstration of equivalence. This approach has a sound technical basis because equal penetration depth requires an identical integral of force on the bullet over time; in lay terminology this means that the “average” force on the bullet while it is penetrating is the same. There is at least one simulant that has been shown to have this equivalence.

And when the results of a real shooting incident don't seem to match, then there's a reason. One simply has to consider all the circumstances involved to determine what caused the difference:

“The test of the wound profiles’ validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile’s course. Shots traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close approximation to the wound profiles.”

“The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency (the German 7.62 NATO bullet for example) a good reason was found and when the exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a valid tissue simulant."

-- Fackler, Martin L., MD., “The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation”, Wound Ballistics Review, V1N4, 1994, pp. 12-19.​
 
What does that mean?
The screw tip bullets do not, and at handgun velocities cannot, cause a larger diameter permanent wound cavity than JHPs of the same caliber that perform properly. wether they work "as good"as JHPs is another question, and it has not been answered.
the paul harrell meat target video shows a larger diameter permanent wound cavity than the jhp bullets. that is unquestionable.

simulation does not matter because jhp and screw-tip bullet effectiveness is being compared side-by-side regardless the test media. the type of media is not important here.

murf
 
simulate isn't good enough here as, again, that is just an opinion (unless live swine have been shot which isn't going to happen). ballistics gel is not required here to make the point that the screw-tip bullets work as good or better than jacketed hollow point bullets. that is the bottom line here. deflections of "amateur videos" and "properly calibrated" can't hide the obvious.
Ordnance gelatin actually does a poor job of depicting the alleged wounding effects of the Xtreme Defender bullet design.

Why?

Because the cracks in ordnance gelatin, produced by the Xtreme Defender bullet, represent the temporary cavity produced, not tissue that is allegedly cut and torn open.

The only way to verify and validate the claims behind the Xtreme Defender's wounding effects is to shoot live animals with it, and then have a competent and reputable person interpret and describe the wounding effects.
 
It's up to you and Paul Harrell to prove to us that it does.
no, it is up to you to reference the live pig test, until then the meat target test stands as the best standard for permanent wound cavity effect.
Dynamic equivalence can never be exact, but similar penetration depth
thanks for the info but we are talking about wound cavity, not penetration.

murf
 
Ordnance gelatin actually does a poor job of depicting the alleged wounding effects of the Xtreme Defender bullet design.

Why?

Because the cracks in ordnance gelatin, produced by the Xtreme Defender bullet, represent the temporary cavity produced, not tissue that is allegedly cut and torn open.

The only way to verify and validate the claims behind the Xtreme Defender's wounding effects is to shoot live animals with it, and then have a competent and reputable person interpret and describe the wounding effects.
agreed. and this applies to jhp, ball, flat point, etc. bullets as well. what i get out of all this is, in side-by-side comparisons, the screw-tip bullet is just as good (expansion/penetration performance), or better, than the jhp.

murf
 
I realized I was distracted by "hype," but the hype I was distracted by was that surrounding the "wounding" caused by hollowpoint bullets from a handgun, not the claims surrounding the Xtreme bullets that unfortunately come along with many absurd explanations.

First, it has to be conceded that a typical jacketed hollowpoint does wound more than a lead round-nosed bullet at the same velocity, but only provided the conditions are favorable to it opening in soft tissue. Even so, it is widely accepted that all handgun bullets enter and travel through tissue at too low velocity to stretch tissue beyond its limit of elasticity to create a permanent wound cavity much larger than the bullet diameter. We've heard this fact drilled by ballistics experts in an effort to overcome the hype in the market surrounding jacketed hollowpoint bullet effects as well as "hyper" cartridges -- whether it's 45 vs 9, or 40, or 10mm, or 357 Sig, or Super Vel, or Buffalo Bore, or whatever "magic bullet" is going to "blow your head clean off." We ought to know that if it's coming out of a handgun, it's going to puncture the target and it quite likely to need multiple punctures to effect a stop. If the hyper-performance is associated with anything that makes the gun harder to control, it's probably not worth it.

I conceded that hollowpoints aren't "magic bullets" that do extreme damage by magical, explosive, blow-up power, and acknowledged that at best, they make a little wider wound track than initial caliber-size. The other substantial benefit of hollowpoints is that they have the potential to limit penetration to an appropriate depth. When the hollowpoint opens, it increases drag in the tissue and slows the bullet, stopping it before it exits with so much velocity that it presents a more serious threat for collateral damage beyond the intended target. I'm not going to get into "energy transfer" and a bunch of other debunked wounding theories -- I already conceded that a spectacular wounding effect cannot be expected from a handgun bullet.

Therefore, jacketed hollowpoints offer a modest increase in wounding and a benefit of penetration reduced to an appropriate depth, but if and only if the hollowpoint functions which it often does not. There are a lot of conditions that can cause a jacketed hollowpoint to fail to open, and these conditions are not unusual. I've probably deceived myself by looking at too many jacketed hollowpoint bullet "flowers" that open so perfectly and symmetrically in water or uniform gel. JHP's can fail not just because they're plugged with punched-out denim, sheet metal, or wood, but simply because the nose gets smashed on anything hard rather than opened with fluid pressure.

My conclusion is that jacketed hollowpoints don't offer as much as I've allowed myself to believe.

If I cast out all the zaney, absurd wounding theories that have accompanied various explanations of how Lehigh Xtreme Defense bullets work, I notice a couple things:

  • They appear to consistently exhibit an appropriate amount of penetration under most all circumstances. Unlike jacketed hollowpoints that exhibit appropriate penetration only under ideal circumstances.
  • They do not exhibit extremely poor tissue disruption like lead round nose or FMJ. I think everyone could agree that they at least behave more similarly to a semi-wadcutter but with more controlled penetration.

Do we need to also believe hyper/extreme wounding capability to find the above two points alone a compelling case for these bullets? I think the answer lies in what you actually believe about the hyper/extreme wounding of JHP.
 
the paul harrell meat target video shows a larger diameter permanent wound cavity than the jhp bullets. that is unquestionable.

simulation does not matter because jhp and screw-tip bullet effectiveness is being compared side-by-side regardless the test media. the type of media is not important here.
There are a handful of factors in which the temporary cavity can permanently damage soft tissues.

One of them is when the tissues involved are constrained, like intercostal tissue (the tissues between ribs). Intercostal tissues are short, connected to the ribs, and cannot stretch very far without tearing. Over the years I've encountered a lot of folks that will post handgun hunting photos showing rib wounds that are larger in diameter than the bullet as "proof" that the temporary cavity of a handgun bullet causes greater permanent disruption than simply what the bullet comes into direct contact with.
 
no, it is up to you to reference the live pig test, until then the meat target test stands as the best standard for permanent wound cavity effect.
That's not how it works. You're the one asserting that butcher cuts accurately depict wounding effects in living tissues. It's up to you to provide the proof it does. Until then it's "unproved".

thanks for the info but we are talking about wound cavity, not penetration.
It's all tied together.
 
@westernrover, apologies if i hijacked your thread. i wish i could answer your myriad questions about the physics of screw-tip bullets, i can't. i don't have the education, or experience, to explain changing force vectors in exterior ballistics.

what i am trying to impress upon you is that numerous side-by-side tests have shown screw-tip bullets perform as well as, or better than, hollow point bullets.

murf
 
the paul harrell meat target video shows a larger diameter permanent wound cavity than the jhp bullets.
Yep
that is unquestionable.
And is not relevant to live tissue.
simulation does not matter because jhp and screw-tip bullet effectiveness is being compared side-by-side regardless the test media. the type of media is not important here.
That is absurd, on the face of it.
no, it is up to you to reference the live pig test, until then the meat target test stands as the best standard for permanent wound cavity effect.
"Best"? No--it's terrible. Freshly killed swine is a lot better. At handgun velocities, it shows that the permanent wound capacity is not larger than the expanded bullet diameter.
thanks for the info but we are talking about wound cavity, not penetration.
Do you believe that wound cavity is a significant factor in handgun wounding effectiveness for defensive encounters?
what i am trying to impress upon you is that numerous side-by-side tests have shown screw-tip bullets perform as well as, or better than, hollow point bullets.
Some of those tests show the adequacy of those bullets In terms of penetration. Others may be okay for entertainment.
I'll use ammunition that has been shown to meet law enforcement requirements.
 
Since I mentioned it in a previous post, here are the handful of factors in which the temporary cavity could damage tissues:

Temporary cavity from handgun bullets has the potential to damage (depending on exact circumstances):
  • Soft tissues that do not tolerate being stretched
    • Brain, liver, pancreas, kidney, spleen
  • Resilient soft tissues that are tightly bound
    • Unable to stretch far enough to absorb strain and tear/rupture
      • e.g., intercostal tissues
  • Size of resilient soft tissues being stretched
    • e.g., individual muscles of the heart
  • “Local anatomy”
Whereas, resilient soft tissues can withstand the stretch of temporary cavity produced by handgun bullets:
  • Lung, muscle, bowel, nerve, vessels, skin
 
I'll chime in with my two cents. My younger brother gave me a box of these Lehigh bullets and I did my own research on them. What convinced me was an article by a police officer who shot through a door with his .357Sig. With a Lehigh, the round would be that much better if you want to shoot through a barrier to reach a bad guy. Since I cast, I wish someone made a mold with the Lehigh design.
 
Do you believe that wound cavity is a significant factor in handgun wounding effectiveness for defensive encounters?
define: "wound cavity", "significant factor", "wounding effectiveness" and "defensive encounters", unless this is a rhetorical question then don't bother.

murf
 
define: "wound cavity", "significant factor", "wounding effectiveness" and "defensive encounters", unless this is a rhetorical question then don't bother.
If you do not understand those terms, you should not be participating in this thread.
 
Just curious if anybody has ever used the Lehigh/underwood Xtreme Penetration bullets/cartridges in a Colt 1903 pocket .32acp

I'm considering them for mine and my buddy just got a matching Colt and I recommended them as a possibility but said I'd find out if anybody ever cycled them in their 1903's reliably?
 
Just curious if anybody has ever used the Lehigh/underwood Xtreme Penetration bullets/cartridges in a Colt 1903 pocket .32acp

I'm considering them for mine and my buddy just got a matching Colt and I recommended them as a possibility but said I'd find out if anybody ever cycled them in their 1903's reliably?
I shot Underwood .32 ACP Xtreme Defender (not Xtreme Penetrator) in a Seecamp .32. Although recoil was sharp, and I feared it might damage the pistol, I shot the entire 20 rd box. I chronographed an average velocity of 10 shots at 999 fps.
 
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