38 Special in a strong revolver

Colt-CZ Group has the following series:

Colt Cobra- .38 Special
Colt KIng Cobra- .357 Magnum
Colt Python- .357 Magnum

I've had two different .38-44's I shot heavy loads through. The Colt SAA and replicas will easily handle Keith's .38-44 loads. Same for the New Service. I've shot the heavy stuff through my USFA Rodeo II.



Before the bottom gun went to Horvath, I had an argument on THR about the strength of .38Spl brass. I took 12 Winchester white box once-fired cases and loaded them with Keith's 2400 load with the intent of making them fail. After 20 or 22 firings, I gave up.

S&W started producing the N Frame 38/44 in 1930. The fixed sight model was called the "Heavy Duty". The "Outdoorsman" had an adjustable sight. Both were produced until 1966, often used by police departments. If you don't mind fixed sights a later 38/44 HD from the 1950s-60s could also be considered.

Colt okayed the use of the 38/44 heavy 38 special load in the Official Police Models. There are still a number of these around, but the price is creeping up. Buffalo Bore has a load that matches that old heavy load. That loads creeps into lower end .357 territory.

I have a 1951 vintage .38/44 S&W and love them! But I love my Model 10 S&W just as much, and never thought of it as weak.

My competition gun for many years was my Bill Davis Custom Model 10 in .38 Special.


My .38/44 Smith.

It may be worth pointing out that Keith had HP White test his 1350fps handloads and they were 42,000psi. You'd certainly want to be careful what guns you shot those in.

hannstv said:

Colt okayed the use of the 38/44 heavy 38 special load in the Official Police Models.

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They did but I don't think they counted on a lot of shooting in one. I certainly wouldn't.

So what you are looking for is a current production 38 Special that can handle hot handloads that would NEVER be suitable for an old 38 Special revolver, to wring the absolute maximum out of that big empty case because the law won't allow anything bigger than a 38, is that what you are saying? Are you saying the laws in those countries will NOT allow a 357 Magnum? I'd think anything really modern would work OK, with a slight nod to Ruger for tank like strength. If Magnum is allowed, and I am planning on hot rodding 38 Special like a Little Deuce Coupe, I'd grab a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

I must be missing something here. If all you can shoot are paper targets, why worry about hot rodding a 38? Just shoot standard 38 and don't worry about it. Save wear and tear on the gun, and on your hands, and even a little money with reduced loads.

Of course, maybe you just like shooting "big boomers." Nothing wrong with that.

I'd choose my older 3" S&W Model 60, back before they were all made for .357 Magnum and were still available in .38 Special.

If the GP-100 is available and you won’t ever need to carry it, I’d choose it over almost anything. I’ve shot a couple S&W’s until they were out of time, but it’s hard to do that with a Ruger. Older S&W’s are fine handguns though. Anymore I prefer 148 grain WC’s at modest velocity for most of my shooting.

CraigC said:

It may be worth pointing out that Keith had HP White test his 1350fps handloads and they were 42,000psi.

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Source for this information, please? Thank you.

fxvr5 said:

Source for this information, please? Thank you.

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Keith's book, now kindly ignore all my posts from this point forward.

CraigC said:

Keith's book, now kindly ignore all my posts from this point forward.

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Which book? Keith wrote more than one. Thank you.

Onty said:

Last several weeks I was watching on TV shows from Great Britain about moving south in warmer climate, and being curious, I started looking what kind of handgun is allowed in some of those countries. Of course, for having handgun license is mandatory, but only for shooting on the range. Handgun for self defense is out of question. As for the caliber in revolvers, I found that in some countries 38 Special is the top limit. Well, if that is the case, if I want revolver 38 Special and want to shoot "souped-up" handloads, looks to me that the most obvious choice is one of those stronger revolvers also chambered in 357 Magnum. From what I found, post WWII strong revolvers chambered in 38 Special are:

1. S&W N-frame 38/44 "Outdoorsman"
2. S&W N-frame M27
3. Ruger Security Six
4. Ruger GP100

I am not familiar with Colts, hopefully, somebody will now which 38 Special revolver will be similar to those listed.

I would appreciate any new info or correction, thanks.

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Pre war colts like the army special/official police, new service and the saa were all strong enough to handle the 38/44 rounds. If you believed colts advertising their Police positive special/detective specials would supposedly handle the 38/44 rounds

I have one of the Ruger SP101 revolvers made for the French Railroad Police. They are chambered in 38 Spl.
These revolvers are identical to normal SP101s, except the markings and the cylinder not drilled to accept 357 Mag.

If you want a modern, small(er) revolver that can handle any sane 38 load, that may be one to consider. I know I have no qualms feeding +P to mine.

CraigC said:

Keith's book,

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Here’s what I found in Elmer Keith’s book Sixguns, copyright 1955 (a 2012 printing by Martino Publishing).

Pages 41-42; “ . . . I started experimenting with the 173 grain bullet I had designed for the Lyman Gunsight Corp., with heavy charges of No. 80 powder. Mattern listed a load of 11 grains of No. 80 with a round nose 160 grain bullet at 1152 feet velocity. [No barrel length listed.] I used this load with the heavier 173 grain Keith bullet . . . I sent a quantity to Col. Bill Tewes of the Peters Cartridge Co. for testing and he chronographed them at an average of 42,000 pounds pressure.“

Clearly, the word “chronographed” is the wrong term here, because that measures speed.

He mentions the “42,000 pounds” again on page 279.
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Elmer mentions the pressure again in a January 1969 article in Guns and Ammo on page 24 of his article, “Favorite Loads”.

“ . . . with a heavy load of Number 80 powder. Col. Bill Tewes, then of Peters Cartridge Company, chronographed them at an average of 42,000 psi.“ Again, the word “chronographed” is the wrong term.

I see no specific mention of his 1350 fps load or the HP White reference, though I might have missed it. It would be kind of you to point me to this source. Thanks.

Dan Wesson made some .38Spl only revolvers that look pretty sturdy to me.
Manurhin made the MR38 and MR88 that are generally known to be built like tanks.
I don't know if Korth made some .38Spl only revolver.
Modern Taurus 82 or 88 or 889 seem very solid revolvers.
A modern S&W Model 64.

Elmer Keith was fond of pushing the limits, and no factory loads ever come close to what Keith tried to do. But Keith blew up some guns too, so there aren't many load he made up that I'd shoot in any handguns I own.
I've never felt the need to push my loads to even listed maximum levels. Mid range loads work fine, and are often far more accurate than max range loads.

Early in the vintage Python's career, Colt chambered a few for 38 Special. I recently saw one for sale, NIB. but it's the only one I've ever seen. If you can find one, it will cost you.

Phil Sharpe shows 10 gr SR80 giving his pet 146 gr hollowpoint 1300 fps in 6" .38 Special at 37000 psi with the footnote "Dangerous." Considering that 16 gr 2400 got him 1511 fps at 35000 psi with no warning, you can see why Elmer was glad to get away from SR80 when 2400 came out.

Sharpe also shows 10 gr SR80, 146 gr HP at 1440 fps in 8.75" .357 Magnum at 40000 psi with footnote "Dangerous, high head pressure." Where 16 gr 2400 got him up to 1600 or 1655 fps depending on seating depth at "only" 36000 psi.

Note, these are crusher readings calibrated in psi by hydraulic pressure or dead load, we call that CUP now.

5-SHOTS said:

Dan Wesson made some .38Spl only revolvers that look pretty sturdy to me.
Manurhin made the MR38 and MR88 that are generally known to be built like tanks.
I don't know if Korth made some .38Spl only revolver.
Modern Taurus 82 or 88 or 889 seem very solid revolvers.
A modern S&W Model 64.

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Ding Ding, winner winner, chicken dinner.

fxvr5 said:

Here’s what I found in Elmer Keith’s book Sixguns, copyright 1955 (a 2012 printing by Martino Publishing).

Pages 41-42; “ . . . I started experimenting with the 173 grain bullet I had designed for the Lyman Gunsight Corp., with heavy charges of No. 80 powder. Mattern listed a load of 11 grains of No. 80 with a round nose 160 grain bullet at 1152 feet velocity. [No barrel length listed.] I used this load with the heavier 173 grain Keith bullet . . . I sent a quantity to Col. Bill Tewes of the Peters Cartridge Co. for testing and he chronographed them at an average of 42,000 pounds pressure.“

Clearly, the word “chronographed” is the wrong term here, because that measures speed.

He mentions the “42,000 pounds” again on page 279.
----------

Elmer mentions the pressure again in a January 1969 article in Guns and Ammo on page 24 of his article, “Favorite Loads”.

“ . . . with a heavy load of Number 80 powder. Col. Bill Tewes, then of Peters Cartridge Company, chronographed them at an average of 42,000 psi.“ Again, the word “chronographed” is the wrong term.

I see no specific mention of his 1350 fps load or the HP White reference, though I might have missed it. It would be kind of you to point me to this source. Thanks.

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Congratulations, troll, I misremembered something.

Onty said:

Many thanks to all! I expected more info, but not so much. Never cease to amaze me knowledge, experience and willingness to help and share on this forum. It's a great privilege to be here!

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Rest asurred Onty. In no time you'll be up to speed and a salty pistolero and reloader. Be Well. Looking forward to your future posts.