Top loads using black powder in modern large caliber revolvers

You could do that. But you still have to compress. Again, I just tap the case a bunch of times on the bench top, and that settles it down quite a bit. Drop tubes and vibration can only do "so much". However, vibrating the whole tray would save a little time, if that is important to you. Me, when I'm reloading, I'm in my happy-place, I'm in the ZONE, and time has no meaning. !!!!!

Well, there are a lot of different methods to do this. Some don't believe in much compression, some do, you will get many different answers and opinions.

Here is my opinion: The powder needs to be more than "slightly" compressed. This should be done in a separate operation. Not with the bullet. The bullet will deform. If you just charge the case with a drop-tube, and try to compress the powder with the bullet, the bullet will be badly deformed. Just my opinion.

Others only compress the powder with the bullet "slightly" so as not to deform the bullet. But that requires charges more in the 30-35 grain range. I don't think slightly is enough compression for best results. Just my opinion. I'm sure there are quite a few reading this that have different opinions.

I was assuming you wanted a 40 grain charge. ? Did I miss something? Again, you won't compress 40 grains with the bullet, even if your drop tube is ten feet long.

What I do for a 40 grain charge in a modern .45 Colt case, is to load the charge into the case. Then I just tap the case on the bench top to settle the powder. I don't mess with a drop tube. (yes I've tried them) Then I put a thin fiber or cork wad (THIN) over the powder, and I compress it with a home-made "thing" to whatever depth needed for the bullet to seat firmly on top of the compressed powder.

The powder must be compressed to whatever depth the base of the bullet will be, when fully seated in the case. No specific measurement, other than the same length as the base of the bullet to the crimping groove, or wherever you want the neck of the case and the the bullet to meet. Or, the longer the bullet, the more compression you will need for it to be seated where desired. A short bullet will require less compression. Again, you are not going to compress a 40 grain charge with the bullet.

"The Thing" The compressor.

For .45 caliber, a .38 or .357 case, with a tight fitting piece of dowel in it, the top of the dowel rounded like a bullet makes a good compressor. You just put it in the case, and then run it into the bullet seating die. Takes some measuring of the dowel, and adjustment of the bullet seating die to get it right. It takes some trial and error to find how much force is needed.

Hope that helps.

Aha! You is getting it. !!!! But again, drop tubes, vibrators or tapping will settle the powder a little bit, but not all that much. Wow that thing in the pic, that will certainly make a great powder compressor. !!! No doubt. I guess a drill press would work well also. I just use a LEE hand press, just takes a little bit of muscle. Which gives me a good "feel" for how much it is compressing.

If the case swells from compressing the powder, then the amount of powder that case will hold has been exceeded. I have never had a .45 Colt case swell even with 42 grains of powder, by weight. I use nickel plated Starline brass. Same with .45-70, I can get 80 grains in, highly compressed, and have never swelled a case. But, something to consider for sure.

For sure, don't try to seat and crimp at the same time. Although, once the powder is compressed to it's proper depth, seating the bullet will be the same as seating in an empty case, or a case with air-space such as a smokeless load. You will just be seating the bullet until it touches (firmly but not compressing)the compressed powder, and won't be compressing it any further with the bullet. I agree, I think it's better to seat and crimp in separate steps.

If you compress the powder too much, and find the bullet is going to seat too deep, don't panic. Just add THIN wads until the seating depth is right. It's not unusual to compress it a bit too much with mechanical advantage.

Okay...good luck. !!!

I do not compress with the bullet at all. I seat it down on the over powder card wad after the compression die. Swiss shot best with only a little compression, about the thickness of the card wad.

Caveat, I am loading for single shot rifles, not revolvers.

Onty said:

I do not want to ruin Rock Chucker.

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Pretty hard to ruin a Rock Chucker. Compressing powder is not a heavy effort.
Swaging bullets is, better have it bolted down good.

Jim Watson said:

Pretty hard to ruin a Rock Chucker. Compressing powder is not a heavy effort.
Swaging bullets is, better have it bolted down good.

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Yeah, I broke a press trying to swage jacketed .338" bullets down to .330". That a whole other story. I agree, a rock-chucker is more than enough. Again, I use a LEE hand press. But I like that green thing in the picture, that's knarley.

Onty said:

Any suggestion how much bullet should be pushed to further compress powder, 1/32, 1/16 (or in millimeters)?

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Typical recommendations are for 1/16th to 1/10th. I personally don't sweat the exact amount - I just want to feel a little crunch, and I call that good.

In particular, I don't sweat many details when loading revolver cartridges. Going through all the tricks might result in better ES, higher velocity, etc., but I'm unlikely to tell the difference in a revolver. So I just dump through a drop tube, and use a bullet with a big lube groove.

Long-range rifle cartridges are a different story...

.38 Special said:

Typical recommendations are for 1/16th to 1/10th. I personally don't sweat the exact amount - I just want to feel a little crunch, and I call that good.

In particular, I don't sweat many details when loading revolver cartridges. Going through all the tricks might result in better ES, higher velocity, etc., but I'm unlikely to tell the difference in a revolver. So I just dump through a drop tube, and use a bullet with a big lube groove.

Long-range rifle cartridges are a different story...

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I don't disagree with that. Now I'm assuming Onty is going for the best ES, velocity, etc. (as do I when loading BP in a revolver) The "Top Load". And most shooters are happy enough with sub-40 grain loads, and slight compression. I will just say/just saying that to get 40 grains in a .45 Colt case, one is probably looking at more like 1/8" inch compression or more. To get that top load will require all the ticks and details.

Ugly Sauce said:

6.64 was OAL,

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Is this a typo, something othr than inches, or is yours one HECK of a 45-70 chamber? Actually a serious Q, just asked with "humor." I have loaded some BP 45-70, but compressed with the bullet, so I got nowhere near 80 grains! 70 was a challenge for some of the rounds - but that was most likely a bell issue, and the bullet didn't wanna stay put. I called these my Eager Rounds.

Ugly Sauce said:

If you compress the powder too much, and find the bullet is going to seat too deep, don't panic. Just add THIN wads until the seating depth is right.

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This answers (I think) my other question: the cork wad you use isn't just for compression; it stays in the case (and occupies space?) and you seat the bullet over it... right?

windini said:

Is this a typo, something othr than inches, or is yours one HECK of a 45-70 chamber? Actually a serious Q, just asked with "humor." I have loaded some BP 45-70, but compressed with the bullet, so I got nowhere near 80 grains! 70 was a challenge for some of the rounds - but that was most likely a bell issue, and the bullet didn't wanna stay put. I called these my Eager Rounds.

This answers (I think) my other question: the cork wad you use isn't just for compression; it stays in the case (and occupies space?) and you seat the bullet over it... right?

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Yes, and yes. I'm talking very thin wads, about match book cover thickness (.022")

I never used a wad in a cartridge. I load my 44-40's to where I get a little compression seating the bullet. IIRC I can get 36 or 37 grains in one but I just round it off to 35.

hawg said:

I never used a wad in a cartridge. I load my 44-40's to where I get a little compression seating the bullet. IIRC I can get 36 or 37 grains in one but I just round it off to 35.

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Right, wad is not necessary. Not even sure why I do it, seemed like a good idea at the time. Still do in the .45-70, not really loading black powder in the EL Patron anymore. For what I use the pistol for, my 1000fps smokeless load just makes more sense. Even though it's stainless, a detailed cleaning in the field would be time consuming.

Ugly Sauce said:

Yes, and yes. I'm talking very thin wads, about match book cover thickness (.022")

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I’ve always used the Walters wads from Buffalo Arms, .030” thickness and firmly believe they are at least an important piece of the load chain. The base of the bullet steers the bullet and the wad protects the base of the bullet.

I can remember back when Ruger brought out the Old Army they stated that using ffffg (4f) with a round ball would get you over 1000 fs. I shot some in mine and it was stout. I've heard stories about the River people shooting a cylinder full of Bullseye without damage but I call BS. I've seen two Super Blackhawk with the top of the cylinder blown off with 22 grains of BE which was loaded by mistake for 2400. Yeah, I've seen printed "evidence" .

The Old Armies definitely bark with 4f. Shot both ball and conical bullets in mine. It was a very sharp almost painful recoil.

woodnbow said:

I’ve always used the Walters wads from Buffalo Arms, .030” thickness and firmly believe they are at least an important piece of the load chain. The base of the bullet steers the bullet and the wad protects the base of the bullet.

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In my opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it is a wad may increase revolver accuracy but it would take a bench to prove it. Lead in something like a 45-70 is hard enough it doesn't need a wad. Go soft here and you're going to lead the barrel big time.

Onty said:

high pressure gasses will create havoc at the back of cylinder and cap particles will fly in all directions l

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That's right, the rear of a cap-N-ball cylinder is "vented". I bet there would be some serious hammer blow-back too.

PapaG said:

I can remember back when Ruger brought out the Old Army they stated that using ffffg (4f) with a round ball would get you over 1000 fs.

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I'm getting 1000fps from my 1860 with only a 6" barrel, using ball and 4fg. In the longer barrel and larger chamber capacity of the ROA I think it would produce 1100fps easily, and very likely 1200fps. Blackie Thomas was getting over 1100fps out of a Rogers and Spencer with 3fg. I don't doubt that, although his claim of getting 50 grains under the ball is most dubious.

Ugly Sauce said:

That's right, the rear of a cap-N-ball cylinder is "vented". I bet there would be some serious hammer blow-back too.

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Probably to the point of shearing the hammer off or internal damage at a minimum.

hawg said:

Probably to the point of shearing the hammer off or internal damage at a minimum.

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If the hammer sheared off, it might wind up between one's eyes. That wouldn't be pretty.

If you got the hammer blow-back just right, one might have a semi-auto revolver.

Ugly Sauce said:

If the hammer sheared off, it might wind up between one's eyes. That wouldn't be pretty.

If you got the hammer blow-back just right, one might have a semi-auto revolver.

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Somebody on another forum 7 or 8 years ago IIRC had that result.