1851 Navy Action Smoothing

[jmar]

I got an 1851 Navy kit a week or two ago and after putting it together for final assembly the action is super stiff. This is a real problem as i was building a fast draw and fanning gun. What can i do to get the hammer pull as light as possible? As it is it's so stiff it's impossible to fan.

Could it be the mainspring is to strong?

 

[Oohrah!]

Is the cylinder rotating smoothly? Possibly the hand is binding? I know I've had trouble getting it to seat correctly. Otherwise, it's the stiffness of the mainspring, IMO. If fanning, you're just holding the trigger off the hammer, so trigger spring is not in play, just the hammer spring.

 

[jmar]

Is the cylinder rotating smoothly? Possibly the hand is binding? I know I've had trouble getting it to seat correctly. Otherwise, it's the stiffness of the mainspring, IMO. If fanning, you're just holding the trigger off the hammer, so trigger spring is not in play, just the hammer spring.

I don't think that's the issue. I did a test where i took the cylinder out and pulled the hammer back and it still feels really stiff.

 

[J-Bar]

As you may already know, percussion revolvers should have stronger hammer springs than cartridge guns in order to reduce/ prevent blowback through the nipple when the gun is fired. Some manufacturers go overboard however. You should be able to cock and fire the gun one-handed without the sights moving off the target very far. Reduced strength hammer springs for an 1851 can be purchased. Unless you are used to working on flat springs, you can screw up the factory spring pretty easy by thinning it. You can also put a washer or piece of leather as a spacer between the bottom of the spring and the frame to prevent the hammer spring strain screw from being able to bottom out totally. That can significantly reduce spring tension.

I gotta admit I am not a fan of fanning, but it's your gun...

You might find this helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB3ZKccjEmQ

 

[jmar]

As you may already know, percussion revolvers should have stronger hammer springs than cartridge guns in order to reduce/ prevent blowback through the nipple when the gun is fired. Some manufacturers go overboard however. You should be able to cock and fire the gun one-handed without the sights moving off the target very far. Reduced strength hammer springs for an 1851 can be purchased. Unless you are used to working on flat springs, you can screw up the factory spring pretty easy by thinning it. You can also put a washer or piece of leather as a spacer between the bottom of the spring and the frame to prevent the hammer spring strain screw from being able to bottom out totally. That can significantly reduce spring tension.

I gotta admit I am not a fan of fanning, but it's your gun...

You might find this helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB3ZKccjEmQ

Okay i'll try putting a piece of leather on it, though i don't know if the screw is long enough. I also have a belt sander so i may try my luck at thinning the spring.

 

[jmar]

Also does anyone know if someone makes a replacement trigger that is wider and contoured? The stock 1851 Navy one is horrible for gun spinning.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Setting a c&b revolver up for fanning is a little more involved than just lightening the mainspring. You need an action stop and a bolt block as well as a "shortened " hand. Special shaping of the bolt head is needed for long life. The timing needs to be advanced.

The hammer needs to be about a 4 pound draw (instead of the normal 7,8 9 lbs.!)
A cap post is a must for fanning, to prevent cap jams.

Without the action upgrades, your revolver will destroy itself.

My website has a couple of videos of fanning action. One is a '51 Navy and the other is a Dragoon.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[jmar]

Setting a c&b revolver up for fanning is a little more involved than just lightening the mainspring. You need an action stop and a bolt block as well as a "shortened " hand. Special shaping of the bolt head is needed for long life. The timing needs to be advanced.

The hammer needs to be about a 4 pound draw (instead of the normal 7,8 9 lbs.!)
A cap post is a must for fanning, to prevent cap jams.

Without the action upgrades, your revolver will destroy itself.

My website has a couple of videos of fanning action. One is a '51 Navy and the other is a Dragoon.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Can you share any details on how to do these things or are they trade secrets?

 

[44 Dave]

Some of these, cap post, bolt block, action stop, and spring lightning are straight forward mods. The arbor/ cylinder gap and timing "adjustments" take a good smith like Mike.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Awwww!! Thanks Dave!! (He's such a nice guy!!)

He's right though, the post, block, and action stop are add-ons. The spring "grinding" is a little touchy. You need to go slow and quinch (in water ) often. You remove material from the "underside" of the spring when you thin it. This changes the tension fairly quickly so go slow. When you get close to the hammer draw you want ( a pound or so) you can start narrowing the spring. Same thing , quinch often. Don't do like some YouTube video folks do and "rock" the spring back and forth while grinding on the WRONG side of the spring!! Yikes!!

The arbor needs to be fit for sure so that you'll have the exact same gun each time it's assembled. The timing needs to be early, meaning the bolt drop needs to be a good 2-2 1/2 bolt widths before the locking notch. Careful not to get it too early though, you don't want it to drop when at half cock!! Meanwhile, the hand needs to stop advancing the cylinder ( carry up) about a bolts width before the notch.

A step cut in the head of the bolt will allow it to enter the lock notch faster than normal and a "negative angle" on the face of the bolt will protect the notch from getting bashed. Bad, beat up notches don't do a good job locking a " too fast to see" cylinder!!!

That's about it. Get your revolver set up like that and a fanner you'll have!! Just always make sure whoever is shooting it is aware of the timing difference. It won't get to battery with "normal" cycling of the action.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram a goonsgunworks

Oh yeah, I forgot! You'll want to remove the hand spring, harden the "working end" of the hand and reinstall the spring.

 

[DPris]

While Mike can do magic on a 51, it is a very poor choice for long-term fanning.
Regular fanning will eventually destroy it, even after he does his work.
Denis

 

[45 Dragoon]

Denis is correct as well. (He's a nice guy too!!)
A fanner is a "working " gun. Correctly set up, they can run a good long while. That is the secret of long life vs a short life. It takes close tolerance hand fitting, extreme surface prep. and knowing exactly what you need to do to end up with exactly what you want.

My El Patron isn't necessarily set up as a fanner per se, and what I mean by that is it functions correctly with normal cycling of the action. The action is advanced somewhat and the fitting of parts was exact. It still gets fanned almost daily (50 times or so) and It has been treated that way for about 3 yrs. with no parts changes/breakage and the notches are still perfect! When I bought it (new), the combination wire spring was replaced with a good ol flat combo spring and tuned! (Every revolver I own is a test bed for service). Every revolver I tune gets the same set up as a fanner (with all the add-ons) with the exception of perfect timing.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

Jmar, I would recommend sending it off to the goon to be set up as a "full time fanner", he know's what he is doing, that is for sure!

 

[mr wack]

Box it up and send it to Georgia, then fan away,,,,,
BTW thanks agin Mike....

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'd thin out the mainspring. Mind you, it makes the mainspring less powerful and you may compromise its ability to ignite the percussion cap.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Thank you Mr.Wack, and shooter44 !!

Gary is right too to a point. You can make an extremely reliable cap gun with a hammer draw of less than 4 pounds. The problem is all the other forces that act against the power of the mainspring powering the hammer (hand spring resistance, very heavy bolt arm resistance, sear/ hammer contact resistance , is the hammer roll frozen or have a flat spot ? . . . ). If you lighten the mainspring and don't do anything else, you're limited to how light you can go.

Even though these S.A.s have few parts, there's a lot going on with their interaction.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[jmar]

I guess i'll scratch my plans on making it a fanning/quickdraw gun. The gun its self isn't high enough quality and doesn't have enough value to warrant doing all these mods to it.

I'll look into getting a different gun that will hold up better for what i want. Will the Uberti Cattleman be strong enough?

 

[Old Fuff]

Many years ago I got one of those opportunities of a lifetime when I was invited to have a short interview with one-of-two still living Arizona Territorial Rangers. He was in his middle 90's and frail, but his mind and memory were sharp as a tack.

Among many other things I ask him about fanning, and if he ever used the technique. He said, "No, and I never met anyone who did - especially in the Ranger Force." My next question was, "Why?" "Because," he said, "Our six-shooters had heavy springs (necessary to ignite primers in those days) and nobody tampered with them (the springs)."

I ask him some more questions, and among other interesting things found out they were far more dependent on their Winchester rifles then six-shooters. They also didn't do "walk down duels," and were specifically ordered to not to.

He eventually explained that what he called, "all of this business" was invented in Hollywood and not on the western frontier.

This may rub some folks the wrong way, but keep in mind he was The Real Thing, not a movie actor.

 

[Old Fuff]

I'll look into getting a different gun that will hold up better for what i want. Will the Uberti Cattleman be strong enough?

I don't think you are going to find anybody's out-of-the-box gun that will stand up to extensive fanning. Ruger comes the closest, but even they need extensive reworking and modifications.

The reasons fanning wasn't popular on the "real frontier" are largely true today. It is not by coincidence that top SASS shooters use modified revolvers.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Old Fuff is correct, Hollywood gave us the fast draw and the fanning. That must have been something to talk with a Ranger back then !! First hand stories are the best!! Thanks Old Fuff!

That being said, the tuners of the '50s and '60s gave us the techniques needed to allow the six shooter to withstand the "new " fast draw/fanning competition .
These competitions are what kept the six shooter front and center for us as kids and we have kept them relevant through our lives. I'm afraid they may die with us but, till we/they do, there will be folks interested in setting them up and helping to keep interest in the six gun.

Had Hollywood not done what it did, we may all be shooting with " bottom feeders" today instead of the revolvers we love!!!

jmar, the Cattleman is a fine revolver and can be made into a fine fanner!!


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[Old Fuff]

That must have been something to talk with a Ranger back then !! First hand stories are the best!!

He was a hoot! And in a little under a half-hour I learned more about law enforcement in the "real" west that I knew before or after. Unfortunately I was so excited I forgot to take my tape recorder, and have regretted it ever since.

At the time - as now - a county sheriff's authority only extended to the county line, but Cochise County was (and still is) only slightly smaller in terms of square miles then Rode Island.

Outlaws were well aware of this and when pressed would cross over into another county or run south into Old México. U.S. Marshal's were only supposed to enforce Federal laws, but woe to the gang that robbed a train or stagecoach and took a strongbox that just happened to have some mail in it.

The Arizona Rangers - like they're counterpart in Texas - were employed by the Territory because Statehood lay in the future. But they could, and did cross county lines at will. When they got done most of the Wild Bunch that had immigrated from Utah were history.

They only existed for a few years, but what they accomplished was to say the least very exciting. They literally shot themselves out a job as things became so peaceful they were disbanded.

 

[DPris]

No stock single-action is going to hold up to long-term fanning.
It requires modifications, and even then won't hold up indefinitely.

Fanning was a pure Hollywood invention never used in real life in the Old West.

What's your end goal here?
Denis

 

[jmar]

No stock single-action is going to hold up to long-term fanning.
It requires modifications, and even then won't hold up indefinitely.

Fanning was a pure Hollywood invention never used in real life in the Old West.

What's your end goal here?
Denis

Just to have a gun that will withstand fanning. I find it really fun.

 

[DPris]

Fanning's typically done with either blanks or wax bullets by those who compete with SAs in appropriate venues.
I've never run across anybody who did it with live ammo.

Fanning in fast-draw competition, as Bob Munden used to say, usually involves three identically set-up guns: One to USE at the event, one to HAVE as backup at the event, and one sitting back home at the gunsmith shop being re-built.
Rotate as necessary.

Fanning places major stress on a gun's guts, and if you plan to be doing it regularly, it'll cost you money.
You'll wear out your gun/s, you won't hit anything with live loads, and YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE FAST-DRAW-FANNING WITH LIVE AMMO!!!!!

You may THINK you do, but you don't.
Denis

 

[4v50 Gary]

Thanks Old Fuff for sharing that insight on the old ranger.