New Uberti Pocket Navy with tight and long arbor

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Mike, that isn't directed at me, is it? I'm just moving along trying to settle on a solution that works best for me and my gun... like I just made some further adjustments and will go out shooting again this weekend. I can't imagine anyone taking issue with wanting a flat cylinder face.

I've appreciated all your input regarding my problems!
 
MH,
Absolutely not. That's why I said it's not a rant or anything of the sort. Folks bring up old threads (which is fine, it shows the problem is real and known) which throw out numbers from .004" to .012" and everything in between. High end makers say differently . . . . . why? . . . . there's work fine! There's are considered the best (by many). There's have much more build time in them. There's are looked on as "built like a tank". Why not do that with our Italian offerings? That's my target.

Mike
 
I believe that there's room on this board for different perspectives and references. After all, there must be close to 20 years of collective experience in the THR black powder forum archives.

For example, regarding Colt cap & balls:
" madcratebuilder said:
The old Colt specs called for .006-.008 for the cap and ball revolvers. You can run a closer gap but risk binding if you have any powder residue build up. Colt had this problem with the Walker and changed the forcing cone shape with the Dragoon model for less surface area contact.

I've shoot these with as much as .018 gap and see little or no difference with the same model at .008.

To close the gap you have to set the barrel back, fairly easy on a open top, requires machining on a top strap model." --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...linder-gap-on-a-colt-type-bp-revolver.588340/

-----

In another thread about SAA's and black powder cartridge revolvers, mec said:

" Most revolver shooter would go looking for a gunsmith if the gap exceeded .005. One famous in-print guru used to say that anything over .003 was unacceptable.

I thought I remember that S&W allowed a .010 gap and this is what somebody said on the Pistol Smith board, "Smith Wesson's official spec used to be .003 to .010". I have seen new SW guns with gaps as wide as .015". "

Driftwood Johnson replied:
" Anyway, my favorite reference for the SAA is Jerry Kuhnhausen's book The Colt Single Action Revolvers Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. In it he recommends a barrel/cylinder gap of .006 for jacketed bullets and .008 for lubed lead bullets. I have many single action revolvers; Colts, Rugers, and clones. The vast majority of them have b/c gaps of between .005 and .008. For some reason, many shooters seem to think that a wider b/c gap is preferable for Black Powder, believing that the increased fouling needs more clearance between barrel and cylinder. However my personal experience is that gaps of between .005 and .008 perform just fine with Black Powder cartridges.

In another book, The S&W Revolver Shop Manual, Kuhnhausen states that most modern S&W revolvers leave the factory with a gap of between .003 and .006. In this book, he states that for Smiths, a gap of .008 is considered max for good performance, and a gap of .005 or .006 is considered ideal. I have not gapped any of my modern Smiths, but I will measure a few over the weekend just to get a feel for what they are.

I can tell you that this old 38-40 Bisley Colt, made in 1909, has a gap of .008 and it shoots just fine with Black Powder.

This old S&W 44 Double Action, chambered for 44 Russian and made in 1881 is a bit worn. It has a pretty wide gap of .015, but it shoots just fine with Black Powder cartridges without any lead spitting. " --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-or-dont-1st-gen-colt-45.752565/#post-9481604

Only the first quote actually pertains to cap & ball guns, but it shows that there's room for a host of informed opinions about barrel cylinder gaps [or clearance] from different sources.
Perhaps it's due in part to the purpose for these revolvers having changed from being primarily military & defensive arms to largely being target pistols and recreational weapons, rather than a gun that one's life depends on.
Much like the reliability vs. perfection of performance dichotomy of many military based weapons.
 
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Arcticap,
I can appreciate what you have posted here and on the previous page and I am a huge fan of the Kuhnhausen books.
The difference is, these are (at least the "Colt SAA manuals" is) for "production" units. The S&W's and any other revolvers you measure are going to give measurements that are "within factory spec." I don't deal in "factory spec.", I have my own specs.
The original open top revolvers that Colt produced were made to be within the factory spec. They were also made for a wartime situation which is different from what they are produced for now. To go a step or two further, some are setup for Cowboy Action Shooting (which doesn't call for close tolerances necessarily) by folks and some are Custom revolvers which house coil torsion springs for the action, as well as a frame mounted spring and pushrod for the hand. With additional enhancements ( a bolt block, action stop, corrected arbor, a cap post, action shield and very tight tolerances ) these revolvers we enjoy shooting can be as reliable as cartridge revolvers and more mechanically accurate than probably most any revolver you own.
As far as the clearance / gap thing, open tops are "self cleaning" because they have a clearance rather than a gap. The cyl kisses the barrel each time it is cycled where as a cyl with a defined gap is allowed to collect fouling/lead on its face. Since the O.T. is self cleaning, it can get away with a very small bbl/cyl clearance which translates to more power/velocity (efficiency) measured or not. The results are efficiency and a clean revolver. When setup as a permanent cartridge gun, O.T.'s can get away with a clearance as small as .0015". My Army and Dragoons are set up this way.

The revolvers I'm interested in are the ones that display more extreme mechanical accuracy in the action, very tight tolerances and easy handling for the shooter.

Mike
 
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I can appreciate that.
There's also premium revolvers like from Pedersoli, Hege or Feinwerkbau.
I guess there's Chevys, Fords, Ferraris and whatever else folks want to make out of them.

I was trying to find the spec's for the clearance of the ROA.
The result was that the spec's. can be all over the board.
Not a bad or good thing, since what's important is that they function.

I learned a long time ago, that an old Volkswagon can be the equivalent of a Cadillac.
They both can get anyone from point A to point B in the same amount of time.
Unless one happens to break down which we can never predict with any certainty.

Keep up the good work.
 
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Remember these cap and ball guns don't have cylinder bushings to deflect the flash and fouling. Less gap less flash . I bought a Navy with over .0012 that has quite a deep flash burned arbor.
 
Took my little 1862 troublemaker out shooting today and the tight gap gave me no problems after I honed the face of the cylinder flat. I'm still puzzled how Uberti even machined it potato chip style, but they did. (Maybe some tool vibration from trying to machine it too fast? I know nothing about machining!) Shoot 45 rounds and the only issue was too many cap jams! First round of sighting in made the gun much better! Next week i'll take some more material off the hammer!

And yes! Beautiful gun!
 
Also, no luck locally finding .380 balls. Since i'm barely getting a crescent shaving, I'm kind of worried about chain fire (havent had any problems, but the .375s just seem too loose). any recommendations for most economic online source?
 
Thanks! Our local black powder shop told me they didn't exist. Convinced me to buy a box of .395s. Managed to load two before stopping. Dont think my gun would like the .389s either. Assuming the Uberti does like the .380s, then will have to hope my Pietta 1851 likes them too! It will be kind of a bummer if i have have both .375s and .380s in my Colt case (they probably wont fit!)
 
That's the rub with nearly all of the Uberti .36's, they usually need .380's which simply aren't available as factory swagged balls.
 
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dickydalton said:
This 2nd Generation C Series 1851 was done by Mike and has the tight gap. I have fired it well over 100 rounds in one session( 138 or 144) without even wiping anything down.I believe I'll just go with his Ideas.
1851

1851

Click to expand...

I have never had anything done by Goon (Mike) but he speaks with authority and experience, I appreciate that, and I have taken him up on the many free tips he has offered.

I also have a soft spot for squareback trigger guards, and the silvered TG and BS look very good. I have never encountered a problem shooting a SB TG as some folks have, even with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag.

Mine is a lowly fantasy Pietta 1851 Navy .36 Second Model Dragoon which Pietta never made to my knowledge, and probably not up to the Colt quality, plain jane, but it works very well. The trigger is even color cased, and one does not see that very much. And, it is a parts gun.

Pietta-1851-Navy-Dragoon.jpg

Jim
 
Thanks! What's the consensus on nickel plated balls in black powder revolvers? The web site says is hardens the outer surface. Is this a problem? Otherwise, looks like a great price!!!
 
mh2000 said:
Thanks! What's the consensus on nickel plated balls in black powder revolvers? The web site says is hardens the outer surface. Is this a problem? Otherwise, looks like a great price!!!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that the Super Buck Shot in denster's link is actually nickel plated shot.
Their nickel plated shot is clearly labeled and sold as being nickel plated.
That may simply be a general disclaimer for their nickel plated shot which may not even be available in .380, at least it's not in their 55 lbs. containers.
However the Super Buck is a harder shot that contains some antimony, but not sure how much or how hard it is.
If denster uses it then he may know.
Or check with Ballistic Products to see if it's actually nickel plated shot or not.

Some people here have used Hornady buckshot without issues in pistols.
Not sure about the larger calibers.


Nickel shot:--->>> https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Nickel-Plated-Lead-00-buck-55-bulk/productinfo/NP00BC/
Super Buck shot:--->>> https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lead-Buckshot/products/65/
 
Arcticap is correct the listing I posted is for lead buckshot not nickle plated. That is just a general disclaimer. Their plated buckshot is clearly labeled on the container.
As to the hardness you won't notice the difference in effort when loading in a percussion revolver as opposed to pure lead. Hard is a relative term this is harder than pure lead but nothing like wheel weights or #2 alloy.
 
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