1858 Pale Rider Hot Swapping

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derek45 said:
That looked pretty smooth.

With my luck, . . . I'd drop one on this rocky soil and set off a cap or two, lead flying up to ruin my day !

LOL
Click to expand...

Yes that is likely what would happen to me also. I had a mattress under where I dropped the cyl's to prevent this.
 
First of all, the Remington you have superimposed over the photo of Clint is not what he was using.

The one you have pictured is one of the modern conversion models that comes directly from the factory set up to shoot cartridges. There is a loading gate on that revolver, so the cylinder does not have to be removed to reload. Empties are popped out and new cartridges loaded into the cylinder no different than a Colt.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

Historically, there were several different ways to convert the 1858 Remington to shoot cartridges. Some had a plate screwed onto the back of the frame with a loading gate. The recess where caps were applied was opened up to allow cartridges to be inserted through the loading gate.

podwR5Dzj.jpg




Others had the cylinder bored out for cartridges, with a very thin plate screwed to the frame. There was a slot in the plate that allowed cartridges to be inserted through the enlarged recess for caps, but the plate only retained cartridges in the cylinder when the action was closed. With this system, if the hammer was cocked and the cylinder rotated while the muzzle was pointed up, a cartridge could slide right out of the slot. In 1868 Remington signed a contract with Smith and Wesson to convert a quantity of 44 caliber Remington Cap & Ball revolvers to fire a 46 caliber Rimfire cartridge. The contract was between Remington and S&W because S&W still controlled the Rollin White patent for revolvers with cylinders bored through to accept cartridges. A total of 4,574 revolvers were converted this way to shoot the 46 Rimfire cartridges. I believe this is a photo of one of the Remingtons converted according to the S&W contract.

poPZQrqpj.jpg




Here is a screen shot of Clint's revolver. I always assumed it was a modern replica that had been modified by the prop men for the movie, but it could actually be an antique conversion. Notice how the hammer nose has been reshaped into a firing pin. Note this firing pin is shaped to fire Centerfire cartridges, not Rimfire cartridges, so it is not one of the revolvers modified per the S&W contract.

pmvRGSYAj.jpg




What ever the case, it is certainly much quicker to reload a Remington that has been converted to fire cartridges, then reloading a Cap & Ball revolver.



The conversion cylinders for my Remingtons are two parts. The cylinders have to be removed from the revolver in order to pop out the empties and load fresh cartridges. The cap is popped off the cylinder, then it can be reloaded and inserted back into the frame. I just timed myself and the best I could do was reload in about 50 seconds. Of course I was dumping out empties and refilling the chambers with fresh cartridges. I did not have spared cylinders loaded with cartridges. And I most certainly was not dropping my cylinder on the ground. Conversion cylinders are expensive.

I have not watched Pale Rider in a long time. How long did it take Clint?

plHhasuij.jpg




However, I concur that there probably were not a lot of spare cylinders for Remington conversions in the Old West. The conversions done on the S&W contract would only have come with one cylinder.

Most of the other Remington conversions were one offs, done by individual gunsmiths, so I doubt there would have been many spare cylinders floating around for them either.
 
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When I am shooting cartridges out of an 1858 I get pretty quick at pulling and replacing the cylinder. Would I want to do so with a cylinder that had percussion caps on it already? Hell no!
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
First of all, the Remington you have superimposed over the photo of Clint is not what he was using.

The one you have pictured is one of the modern conversion models that comes directly from the factory set up to shoot cartridges. There is a loading gate on that revolver, so the cylinder does not have to be removed to reload. Empties are popped out and new cartridges loaded into the cylinder no different than a Colt.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

Historically, there were several different ways to convert the 1858 Remington to shoot cartridges. Some had a plate screwed onto the back of the frame with a loading gate. The recess where caps were applied was opened up to allow cartridges to be inserted through the loading gate.

View attachment 1099285




Others had the cylinder bored out for cartridges, with a very thin plate screwed to the frame. There was a slot in the plate that allowed cartridges to be inserted through the enlarged recess for caps, but the plate only retained cartridges in the cylinder when the action was closed. With this system, if the hammer was cocked and the cylinder rotated while the muzzle was pointed up, a cartridge could slide right out of the slot. In 1868 Remington signed a contract with Smith and Wesson to convert a quantity of 44 caliber Remington Cap & Ball revolvers to fire a 46 caliber Rimfire cartridge. The contract was between Remington and S&W because S&W still controlled the Rollin White patent for revolvers with cylinders bored through to accept cartridges. A total of 4,574 revolvers were converted this way to shoot the 46 Rimfire cartridges. I believe this is a photo of one of the Remingtons converted according to the S&W contract.

View attachment 1099286




Here is a screen shot of Clint's revolver. I always assumed it was a modern replica that had been modified by the prop men for the movie, but it could actually be an antique conversion. Notice how the hammer nose has been reshaped into a firing pin. Note this firing pin is shaped to fire Centerfire cartridges, not Rimfire cartridges, so it is not one of the revolvers modified per the S&W contract.

View attachment 1099287




What ever the case, it is certainly much quicker to reload a Remington that has been converted to fire cartridges, then reloading a Cap & Ball revolver.



The conversion cylinders for my Remingtons are two parts. The cylinders have to be removed from the revolver in order to pop out the empties and load fresh cartridges. The cap is popped off the cylinder, then it can be reloaded and inserted back into the frame. I just timed myself and the best I could do was reload in about 50 seconds. Of course I was dumping out empties and refilling the chambers with fresh cartridges. I did not have spared cylinders loaded with cartridges. And I most certainly was not dropping my cylinder on the ground. Conversion cylinders are expensive.

I have not watched Pale Rider in a long time. How long did it take Clint?

View attachment 1099288




However, I concur that there probably were not a lot of spare cylinders for Remington conversions in the Old West. The conversions done on the S&W contract would only have come with one cylinder.

Most of the other Remington conversions were one offs, done by individual gunsmiths, so I doubt there would have been many spare cylinders floating around for them either.
Click to expand...
those cylinders conversion cylinders are very expensive. I want to try this but with the cap & ball cylinders, they might be cheaper.

nice write up, especially that S&W owned the rights to bore though. Imagine if they let manufacturers in the era to use there patients. The cool guns that would have been.
 
brewer12345 said:
When I am shooting cartridges out of an 1858 I get pretty quick at pulling and replacing the cylinder. Would I want to do so with a cylinder that had percussion caps on it already? Hell no!
Click to expand...
I’m going to try to get good at Hot Swapping! better buy some spare parts, the Hand part is going to get dinged up! my new 58 is new and tight
 
PRRem58-2.jpg

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.
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hollywood guns are often converted from cap&ball to accept blanks, lots of info on the web about it.

example...
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Outlaw_Josey_Wales,_The#Colt_Walker_1847

Colt Walker 1847
Josey Wales (Clint Eastwood) carries two Colt Walker 1847 revolvers in twin holsters as his primary sidearms, although he carries four pistols in total. While not supposed to be known by the audience, the guns are converted to fire metallic cartridges instead of firing percussion cap and ball, since this it is safer to use blanks than firing blackpowder blank shot. While some of the guns are anachronistically seen with conventional metallic conversion kits with ejector rods and loading gates, these guns lack these features to try to hide its conversion. In some scenes though, the guns are non-firing models which do have percussion nipples so the audience can be tricked into thinking the guns are a percussion only. The famous image in which Wales poses with his Colt Walkers is a good example.

Here's the PALE RIDER scene....

 
derek45 said:
View attachment 1099299

.
.
.


hollywood guns are often converted from cap&ball to accept blanks, lots of info on the web about it.

example...
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Outlaw_Josey_Wales,_The#Colt_Walker_1847

Colt Walker 1847
Josey Wales (Clint Eastwood) carries two Colt Walker 1847 revolvers in twin holsters as his primary sidearms, although he carries four pistols in total. While not supposed to be known by the audience, the guns are converted to fire metallic cartridges instead of firing percussion cap and ball, since this it is safer to use blanks than firing blackpowder blank shot. While some of the guns are anachronistically seen with conventional metallic conversion kits with ejector rods and loading gates, these guns lack these features to try to hide its conversion. In some scenes though, the guns are non-firing models which do have percussion nipples so the audience can be tricked into thinking the guns are a percussion only. The famous image in which Wales poses with his Colt Walkers is a good example.

Here's the PALE RIDER scene....

Click to expand...

nice link:

tell you what, that was a very close (distance) gun fight. There wide angle lens must have broken
 
Mark_Mark said:
especially that S&W owned the rights to bore though
Click to expand...

I said that S&W controlled the White patent. They did not own it. A slight technical difference.

When Daniel Wesson designed his first cartridge revolver, the little No. 1 22 Rimfire, he had the bright idea to bore the chambers through the cylinder to accept cartridges. This was 1857, and metallic cartridges were still a new idea. Wesson did a patent search and found out that a former Colt employee, Rollin White, had come up with the same idea and obtained a patent on it. Wesson set up a meeting with White, and offered to buy the rights to the patent outright, but White would not sell the rights to the patent. Instead a deal was worked out where Smith and Wesson would be the sole licensees to be able to manufacture revolvers with cylinders with bored through chambers. White would receive a royalty of $.25 for every revolver Smith and Wesson manufactured. But Daniel Wesson was a very clever guy, and he inserted a clause into the contract that White would be responsible for policing the patent against patent infringements. White spent most of his money on lawyers during the time the patent was in force, until 1872.

pl8tyYTMj.jpg
 
It works, of course I didn't have magazine pouch's and did it one time with the cylinder's laying on the board rest of my old truck!
I for the life of me could never figure out why Stockburn (John Russell) didn't pull his gun and fire at Clint when he was reloading!
I think these also fit my 1858 stainless? Gave it a nice 2-tone effect! IMG_1372.JPG
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
I said that S&W controlled the White patent. They did not own it. A slight technical difference.

When Daniel Wesson designed his first cartridge revolver, the little No. 1 22 Rimfire, he had the bright idea to bore the chambers through the cylinder to accept cartridges. This was 1857, and metallic cartridges were still a new idea. Wesson did a patent search and found out that a former Colt employee, Rollin White, had come up with the same idea and obtained a patent on it. Wesson set up a meeting with White, and offered to buy the rights to the patent outright, but White would not sell the rights to the patent. Instead a deal was worked out where Smith and Wesson would be the sole licensees to be able to manufacture revolvers with cylinders with bored through chambers. White would receive a royalty of $.25 for every revolver Smith and Wesson manufactured. But Daniel Wesson was a very clever guy, and he inserted a clause into the contract that White would be responsible for policing the patent against patent infringements. White spent most of his money on lawyers during the time the patent was in force, until 1872.

Click to expand...
you’re just a walking history book, you would be a good Salon partner! Shots on me!

have you been to the Wild Bill Museum of the West in Cody?
 
Just4FunOldGuns said:
It works, of course I didn't have magazine pouch's and did it one time with the cylinder's laying on the board rest of my old truck!
I for the life of me could never figure out why Stockburn (John Russell) didn't pull his gun and fire at Clint when he was reloading!
I think these also fit my 1858 stainless? Gave it a nice 2-tone effect!View attachment 1099301
Click to expand...
I know! not like Gunfighter were fare. He just watched Clint put in a new cylinder, carful not to drop the old cylinder, pul out a fresh cylinder, walk up to bad breath distance, and get shot ! lol
 
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