1911 Accidental Discharge
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il.bill
Member
This is the link to which I was referring - somehow I missed quoting it in the above post.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I'd have to doubt that story. First off, the sear isn't that fragile.
Secondly, it would have to literally disintegrate in order to keep the half-cock notch from catching it.
I had this conversation a while back, and arranged a demonstration for a doubter.
Being in possession of a good number of old parts, I first removed the hammer's hooks...thumbed the hammer back and let it slip.
The half-cock stopped it.
Then, I used a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown to simulate a broken sear...and not only did the half-cock grab the stubby sear and stop...when I used the sear with a good hammer, it held full cock and functioned several times in live fire before the hammer started to follow.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Short answer, NO.
Even though a 1911 because it's cocked scares people and they think it's not safe is probably the safest handgun available. do you know how much has to go wrong with a 1911 for it to go "blam"? Even if everything is done wrong it's hard to get a 1911 to fire. Besides the manual safety the grip safety has to be depressed and the trigger has to be pulled.
Everyone loves the Glock but in reality a cocked-n-locked 1911 is even safer. What is it, the fact you can see the hammer cocked that scares everyone?
Even though a 1911 because it's cocked scares people and they think it's not safe is probably the safest handgun available. do you know how much has to go wrong with a 1911 for it to go "blam"? Even if everything is done wrong it's hard to get a 1911 to fire. Besides the manual safety the grip safety has to be depressed and the trigger has to be pulled.
Everyone loves the Glock but in reality a cocked-n-locked 1911 is even safer. What is it, the fact you can see the hammer cocked that scares everyone?
How do you figure?
[strike]PS: Not all 1911s have grip safeties, not by a long shot.[/strike]
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sgt127
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I know of one. Guy was carrying a 70 series in an open top holster. Pulling cedar stumps. Toss chain around stump, hook it, get in pick up, pull, repeat.
He drove off and got to a gate. Drove through and tossed the chain to secure the gate. Heard a bang. Looked around and realized it was his gun that went off. In the holster. Cocked and locked.
Took gun out of holster. Stared at it. Dropped the safety, racked the slide, empty casing pops out.
He said he took the gun and sat on the tailgate trying to figure out how that gun went off.
He said he finally noticed that there was a little rusty smear on the edges of the hammer slot in the slide. As best as he can put together, he tossed the chain around the gate and the (rusty) hook on the end whipped around and dropped, point first, into the slot and hit the firing pin. He tried lining up all the pieces and, it worked.
I'd known the guy for years. Nobody else was around and, he didn't have to explain a hole in his leg. So, I believe him. Astronomical odds? No doubt. But, I tried it with a chain I had, the point of the hook will fit in there. (Of course, there's hundreds of different sized hooks).
He drove off and got to a gate. Drove through and tossed the chain to secure the gate. Heard a bang. Looked around and realized it was his gun that went off. In the holster. Cocked and locked.
Took gun out of holster. Stared at it. Dropped the safety, racked the slide, empty casing pops out.
He said he took the gun and sat on the tailgate trying to figure out how that gun went off.
He said he finally noticed that there was a little rusty smear on the edges of the hammer slot in the slide. As best as he can put together, he tossed the chain around the gate and the (rusty) hook on the end whipped around and dropped, point first, into the slot and hit the firing pin. He tried lining up all the pieces and, it worked.
I'd known the guy for years. Nobody else was around and, he didn't have to explain a hole in his leg. So, I believe him. Astronomical odds? No doubt. But, I tried it with a chain I had, the point of the hook will fit in there. (Of course, there's hundreds of different sized hooks).
Even with astronomical odds, given enough opportunities, it's bound to happen to somebody eventually.
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction I suppose.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Well, crap.
Nevermind me.
Edit: Thread on 1911s and grip safeties on THR
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=379172
Nevermind me.
Edit: Thread on 1911s and grip safeties on THR
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=379172
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It's a logical fallacy to assume that the sear will break within 1/8" of the tip.
The sear might break in half at the pivot point, where there's a big old hole drilled through it. The tip could break off at an angle that glances off the half cock notch. The pin that holds the sear could break. The other end of the sear could break, leaving the tip intact but not in the right place. Enough of the sear could break off that even if it caught the half cock notch, it would be too late.
If you truly understand how the 1911 works, and you are honest with yourself, you would agree. The 1911 method of blocking the sear, instead of the hammer, is not ideal. And tacking on a FP block that is activated by a trigger that barely moves is also not ideal. It's good enough, for now. Just not ideal.
The 1911 has made it this far, and I don't see it going out of vogue, even in another 100 years. It gets a free pass on this one. But if any major company designed a new firearm with similar safety mechanisms, their lawyers would nix the idea.
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1911 guy
Member
I know of one, but it was a pistol that had been kitchen table gunsmithed and was simply unsafe due to said hack job. The officer unholstered, set it down on top of his locker and it discharged into the wall of the locker room. Pretty frightening to think that he'd been carrying it for several weeks until this happened and the problem only discovered after the incident. Thankfully no one was hurt.
As far as non-butchered guns, the only one i know of was the MRI incident related above.
As far as non-butchered guns, the only one i know of was the MRI incident related above.
RustyShackelford
member
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Post 16....
I was going to bring up the off duty cop's 1911a1 .45acp having a AD.
That was wild.
I think it was a series 80 1911a1 too not a WWII or Milspec version.
Rusty
I was going to bring up the off duty cop's 1911a1 .45acp having a AD.
That was wild.
I think it was a series 80 1911a1 too not a WWII or Milspec version.
Rusty
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I've only been playing with & Gunsmithing 1911's for about 50 years.
So, what do I know?
But, I find it incomprehensible that a cocked & locked 1911 in a holster could have a sear suddenly crumble into dust, or a sear pin shear off on both ends at the same time to allow an unmolested hammer to set off a round!
The sear & pin are under Very Little pressure holding the hammer cocked.
And if they didn't magically turn into fairy dust somehow?
The gun didn't fail and just shoot itself!!!
There is no record of any such thing in military service between 1911, and now.
If the sear didn't suddenly turn itself into scrap metal fragments all by itself?
The intercept notch on the hammer would snag on it as designed and prevent the hammer from dropping all the way.
I have to chalk that story up as another booger hook on the bang switch excuse looking for someone that doesn't know any better who will believe it.
rc
So, what do I know?
But, I find it incomprehensible that a cocked & locked 1911 in a holster could have a sear suddenly crumble into dust, or a sear pin shear off on both ends at the same time to allow an unmolested hammer to set off a round!
The sear & pin are under Very Little pressure holding the hammer cocked.
And if they didn't magically turn into fairy dust somehow?
The gun didn't fail and just shoot itself!!!
There is no record of any such thing in military service between 1911, and now.
If the sear didn't suddenly turn itself into scrap metal fragments all by itself?
The intercept notch on the hammer would snag on it as designed and prevent the hammer from dropping all the way.
I have to chalk that story up as another booger hook on the bang switch excuse looking for someone that doesn't know any better who will believe it.
rc
alientrainwreck
Member
I have worked on a springfeild usa 1911 that would discharge if I held the gun and pulled the trigger hard enough with cocked and locked safety engaged, it was an internal issue, I do remember I was able to fix it just by stripping it apart and polishing the trigger mechanism and putting the gun back together correctly fixed it. That was years ago. But yes I did it on purpose to see. Outside on my own shooting range.. I always tell people that want to do their own gunsmithing work that its like riding horses if you do it long enough your gonna get bucked off, its not if its when and how bad gunsmith work is the same way. Even the best company's mess up on occasion, were all only human. NOW YOUR WEAPON.BE SAFE
Likely? No. Possible? It doesn't take the sear to crumble into dust for this to happen. I wouldn't call it impossible. If a sear develops or is manufactured with a crack next to the pin/pivot point, it will still work just fine. Probably for a long time. Maybe forever. Maybe not forever.
I don't want to be the guy that happens to. Tried and convicted by the experts, already.
The 1911 seems to be safe enough for the court of popular opinion. But I don't see new designs capitalizing on the 1911's safety record. By making a safety that blocks a doohickey that blocks another doohickey from moving a couple hundredths of an inch.
When you're talking about tuning/fitting being the difference between a properly functioning gun, an unsafe gun, or a doorstop, it really strikes home how close the difference can be. When you are done properly testing it for safety, how do you know if you're hanging by a thread or not? As parts wear in, is the gun still going to be safe? After the gun is dropped, is it still safe?
The current trend of palpable trigger takeup deactivating a firing pin block is popular for a reason. It doesn't take a smith to certify the gun is in safe working order. There's plenty of room for error, well beyond what manufacturing tolerances and wear can produce.
A 1911 can easily be made safe, if you know what you're doing and you check it yourself. Most 1911's leave the factory and are never disassembled beyond a field strip, again. Factory can make mistakes.
I like to play devil's advocate to some degree. But I honestly don't like the 1911 design. It's not that I think it isn't safe. I think there are designs that are objectively and empirically safer and just as good or better. I wouldn't say it's impossible for any gun to fire without human interaction. But some designs are much more unlikely than others. Even if they were made by the new guy on a Friday.
I don't want to be the guy that happens to. Tried and convicted by the experts, already.
The 1911 seems to be safe enough for the court of popular opinion. But I don't see new designs capitalizing on the 1911's safety record. By making a safety that blocks a doohickey that blocks another doohickey from moving a couple hundredths of an inch.
When you're talking about tuning/fitting being the difference between a properly functioning gun, an unsafe gun, or a doorstop, it really strikes home how close the difference can be. When you are done properly testing it for safety, how do you know if you're hanging by a thread or not? As parts wear in, is the gun still going to be safe? After the gun is dropped, is it still safe?
The current trend of palpable trigger takeup deactivating a firing pin block is popular for a reason. It doesn't take a smith to certify the gun is in safe working order. There's plenty of room for error, well beyond what manufacturing tolerances and wear can produce.
A 1911 can easily be made safe, if you know what you're doing and you check it yourself. Most 1911's leave the factory and are never disassembled beyond a field strip, again. Factory can make mistakes.
I like to play devil's advocate to some degree. But I honestly don't like the 1911 design. It's not that I think it isn't safe. I think there are designs that are objectively and empirically safer and just as good or better. I wouldn't say it's impossible for any gun to fire without human interaction. But some designs are much more unlikely than others. Even if they were made by the new guy on a Friday.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
As to all that, I guess if you stand around in one spot long enough that a meteorite could fall on you.
There it is. The sear isn't that fragile and it's not at all brittle. Hit one with a hammer and you'll start to understand that.
Nor does it suffer impact stress during normal operation.
Over the course of 50 years come next spring...the most damage I've seen on a sear was (one) crown that chipped on one corner and (one) foot fractured in the corner adjacent to the pin hole on an MIM sear.
In neither case did the gun discharge itself or suffer any sort of malfunction and was only discovered during a detail strip for cleaning and inspection.
Zerodefect
member
Just doesn't happen.
If you're really worried about cheap Sears, make sure your 1911 has a trigger activated FP safety. Problem solved. I'd rather just have a quality sear and a series 70 style 1911.
If you're really worried about cheap Sears, make sure your 1911 has a trigger activated FP safety. Problem solved. I'd rather just have a quality sear and a series 70 style 1911.
Mainsail
Member
Without beating the dead semantics horse, YES, I have had a 1911 discharge with the thumb safety fully engaged.
1985, AMT Longslide Hardballer. One of the guys from my FE class in Altus OK mentioned he had never fired a handgun and was concerned because it was something he was going to have to do once he got back to his squadron, so I offered to take him out and let him shoot my pistol.
Once we had an impromptu range set up, I went over the features of the gun (of no use to him later as we carried S&W model 15s). After loading and chambering a round and about to hand him the gun, I realized that I hadn't explained the thumb safety, which he would need to thumb down to fire. So I pointed to it with my off hand and told him the gun wouldn't fire with it in the up position.
I then pointed it towards the target and demonstrated by pulling the trigger. BOOM! The thumb safety sheared off and I remember hearing (or thinking I heard) it whiz off towards Mexico. Game over.
I took it to a gunsmith in Lawton who, as it happened, was an AMT authorized repair station. He told me that the internals all measured in spec, but all were at the very bottom of their spec, so that combination caused it to fire. AMT sent the parts overnight and he had it up and running ready for pick up the next weekend.
To this day, whenever I have one of my 1911s unloaded I will run it through a quick drill.
Gun unloaded, checked and rechecked
Slide cycled, without pressing the grip safety- trigger pulled. Hammer doesn't fall.
Thumb safety up, grip safety depressed- trigger pulled. Hammer doesn't fall.
1985, AMT Longslide Hardballer. One of the guys from my FE class in Altus OK mentioned he had never fired a handgun and was concerned because it was something he was going to have to do once he got back to his squadron, so I offered to take him out and let him shoot my pistol.
Once we had an impromptu range set up, I went over the features of the gun (of no use to him later as we carried S&W model 15s). After loading and chambering a round and about to hand him the gun, I realized that I hadn't explained the thumb safety, which he would need to thumb down to fire. So I pointed to it with my off hand and told him the gun wouldn't fire with it in the up position.
I then pointed it towards the target and demonstrated by pulling the trigger. BOOM! The thumb safety sheared off and I remember hearing (or thinking I heard) it whiz off towards Mexico. Game over.
I took it to a gunsmith in Lawton who, as it happened, was an AMT authorized repair station. He told me that the internals all measured in spec, but all were at the very bottom of their spec, so that combination caused it to fire. AMT sent the parts overnight and he had it up and running ready for pick up the next weekend.
To this day, whenever I have one of my 1911s unloaded I will run it through a quick drill.
Gun unloaded, checked and rechecked
Slide cycled, without pressing the grip safety- trigger pulled. Hammer doesn't fall.
Thumb safety up, grip safety depressed- trigger pulled. Hammer doesn't fall.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, they'll absolutely do that if the safety lug lets the sear escape from the hammer hooks when the trigger is pulled.
But, in every instance that I've seen that happen, the hammer wiped the safety off as it fell.
I guess this is just one of those reasons that The 4 Laws exist. I am perfectly comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911 in a good holster.
But guns can fail. I know it took me a long time to trust decockers. Something about the hammer falling at full speed that has always freaked me out a bit. I KNOW they are safe, but I always point them in a safe direction when I load my pistols with that feature as I do with all my firearms.
But guns can fail. I know it took me a long time to trust decockers. Something about the hammer falling at full speed that has always freaked me out a bit. I KNOW they are safe, but I always point them in a safe direction when I load my pistols with that feature as I do with all my firearms.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Good policy. Is gun. Gun not safe.
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