1911 Accidental Discharge

[Trent]

Didn't someone on here actually DO drop testing with primed cases and determine that a direct muzzle-down impact from a few feet was enough to fire the casing??

I remember that from last year, or the year before.. wouldn't have any idea how to dig up that thread though, you search for 1911 on this forum and you get more results than a human can possible parse.

 

[1911Tuner]

Didn't someone on here actually DO drop testing with primed cases and determine that a direct muzzle-down impact from a few feet was enough to fire the casing??

We've always know that. The OP asked if there were any known instances of a cocked and locked pistol 1911 discharging with the thumb safety engaged...presumably holstered.

 

[GLOOB]

A faulty 1911 could potentially fire itself. Just like a bad Lorcin might fire itself. People make mistakes. It could have been the guy carrying the 1911 that made a mistake. It could have been the guy who built the gun. We can't say, one way or the other.

Plenty of folks are rushing to say that it's impossible. If a couple of worst case scenarios are strung together, it is certainly possible that the guy experienced an AD that was not his fault.

There are shadetree mechanics out there that have done foolish things to a Glock, including removing the internal firing pin block. Add a bangup trigger job and sell to an unwitting buyer that is none the wiser, well, that could be a problem. In the case of a 1911, it might be something less obvious, even. A string of borderline parts put together in a borderline frame without knowledgeable fitting/tuning.

We've always know that. The OP asked if there were any known instances of a cocked and locked pistol 1911 discharging with the thumb safety engaged...presumably holstered.

Of course, if you dropped a holstered 1911 (absent or broken FP block) with thumb safety on, it could still drop-fire. Logical loophole, there.

 

[1911Tuner]

Plenty of folks are rushing to say that it's impossible.

Well...anything's possible...but so many things would have to go wrong at precisely the right time and in the right sequence to make it as close to impossible as it could be.

Of course, if you dropped a holstered 1911 (absent or broken FP block) with thumb safety on, it could still drop-fire.

I've seen a good many 1911s get dropped, and even dropped one myself. I haven't seen one fire yet. It pretty much has to strike dead straight onto the muzzle...on a hard surface like concrete.
The California drop tests are rigged to do that in order to make the gun fire.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If that happened, it would have taken an extraordinarily unlikely chain of cascade failures.

 

[GLOOB]

If that happened, it would have taken an extraordinarily unlikely chain of cascade failures.

The California drop tests are rigged to do that in order to make the gun fire.

Yes.... and? That's the point. The drop test isn't supposed to randomly find the 0.1% fault, so that only the "unlucky" bad design is discovered. You put a million 1911's out there, and what do you think is eventually going to happen? The worst case.

(Of course muzzle down drop-safety is not that big a deal. Unless the gun lands on your head.)

 

[1911Tuner]

Yes.... and? That's the point. The drop test isn't supposed to randomly find the 0.1% fault, so that only the "unlucky" bad design is discovered.

Quite the opposite, actually. All 1911s without a passive firing pin block will drop fire if the circumstances are just right. The purpose of the tests is to force the manufacturers to tweak the design so that it won't happen when dropped from a ridiculously unrealistic height.

But, once again, we've digressed and let it fly free from the tangent. Namely...the OP's concerns with spontaneous discharge while carried cocked and locked...while holstered, I assume.

(Of course muzzle down drop-safety is not that big a deal. Unless the gun lands on your head.)

We're in agreement on that. I still haven't been able to arrange for a video of a live round drop fire in order to test my theory...that being that it poses little serious risk except to any mice that may be lurking close by.

 

[rhinoh]

One example is 2001 case in New York where Colt M1991 A1 was sucked into MRI scanner and discharged there. The safety was on. Slide remained forward and empty casing was still in the chamber after the accident.

Read your later link. What a story! Thanks.
I used to work with super conducting NMR back in the mid-70's in a research environment. We had an incident with a screwdriver being yanked out of a tech's hand, that article brought back some memories.

 

[GLOOB]

Quite the opposite, actually. All 1911s without a passive firing pin block will drop fire if the circumstances are just right. The purpose of the tests is to force the manufacturers to tweak the design so that it won't happen when dropped from a ridiculously unrealistic height.

Well, what is unrealistic is a matter of opinion. Roofers have a right to carry, too, don't they?

(Of course muzzle down drop-safety is not that big a deal. Unless the gun lands on your head.)

We're in agreement on that.

Yeah, not too big a concern. But I suppose if a gun is dropped while in a multistory building, it can shoot through the floor. Or if one of those armed roofers drops a gun, it could land on the roof of your car, even. Outside of CA, it seems like it's enough to put the onus on the gun owner, rather than the state. And don't get me wrong, I prefer it stay that way. Freedom and all. Freedom to choose a safer gun, if you want to, as well. I don't have to like 1911's, do I?

 

[1911Tuner]

Outside of CA, it seems like it's enough to put the onus on the gun owner, rather than the state. And don't get me wrong, I prefer it stay that way. Freedom and all. Freedom to choose a safer gun, if you want to, as well.

At the end of the day, it's always been on the gun owner as it should be.

"Safer" gun? No gun can be safe unless it's never loaded. Is gun. Gun not safe.

. I don't have to like 1911's, do I?

Nope. I don't really like'em all that much myself...but if I had to pick one and run...it would be a 1911.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Is gun. Gun not safe.

Gaad, I love that one.

Didn't I read recently about a guy who dropped his 1911 in The John and it discharged into the tile floor at work? I'm of the opinion that we can *all* have an ND or AD and that it's only a matter of time so there needs to be redundant safety procedures in place.

A pistol going off in the holster while cocked and locked? Scary stuff.

VooDoo

 

[Nom de Forum]

Well...anything's possible...but so many things would have to go wrong at precisely the right time and in the right sequence to make it as close to impossible as it could be.

I agree with 1911Tuner. While very improbable it is not mechanically impossible and given the enormous numbers of 1911 style pistols it is a certainty that eventually some 1911 style pistol out there will fire with the thumb-safety engaged even without being dropped. This is not something that a person should spend much time worrying about but if it happens to you it will be a very unfortunate and possibly catastrophic event in your life. I am very glad the pistols I carry have firing pin safeties. I am even more glad that my pistols when loaded do not have a firing mechanism that has sufficient percussive energy being stored for a failure to occur of the type described by the O.P. Any disadvantages pistols of this type have in trigger pull characteristics are more than offset by the peace of mind it provides me. Other shooters may not require a similar level of safety features for their peace of mind and only they can determine that.

 

[1911Tuner]

A pistol going off in the holster while cocked and locked? Scary stuff.

And about as likely as gettin' beaned by that meteorite that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Nom de Forum]

And about as likely as gettin' beaned by that meteorite that I mentioned earlier.

This happens quite frequently. It just is not noticed because the size and mass of the meteorites are too small to be noticed. Even those meteorite head beanings that are noticed are probably more prevalent than cocked and locked 1911s firing in the holster.

 

[Jim K]

A few random comments:

There are some 1911 type pistols in which the manual safety does block the hammer, the Ballester-Molina being one. The safety cams the hammer back off the sear and blocks it. The thinking is the same as the safety system of a Mauser or Springfield rifle.

The chance of a 1911 firing if dropped on the muzzle increases a lot with the use of a full length guide rod. In the standard pistol, if the safety is off, a lot of the inertia will be absorbed by the slide moving backward; with an FLGR, the slide will not move back to absorb the energy and the firing pin is more likely to move forward and fire a chambered round. The same thing is true if the manual safety is on and closely fitted to the slide - the slide can't move back. So in one respect, applying the manual safety makes that gun less safe.

When the Poles were developing the Radom Model 35 pistol, they found that the gun would discharge if dropped on the muzzle; they traced the problem to the solid guide rod they were using. That is why the Radom has a two piece guide rod with a spring between the pieces.

The gun firing when it struck the MRI machine really blows the mind, but the analysis seems valid and I accept it. It does show how much force a strong magnetic field can assert. I have little doubt that had that been any ferrous metal object and someone had been between it and the magnet, an injury could have resulted.

Over the years, though, I have found that most of the stories about guns firing with the safety on are pure CYA. The guy who shoots his companion always insists that it was an accident due to a gun failure and that the victim was his best friend. Investigators pretend belief and sympathy, but really treat both claims with skepticism.

Jim

 

[GLOOB]

The chance of a 1911 firing if dropped on the muzzle increases a lot with the use of a full length guide rod. In the standard pistol, if the safety is off, a lot of the inertia will be absorbed by the slide moving backward; with an FLGR, the slide will not move back to absorb the energy and the firing pin is more likely to move forward and fire a chambered round

I disagree with this reasoning. The firing pin is located in the slide, not the frame.

If the slide is locked to the frame, then w/e the gun hits has to stop the momentum of the entire gun in order to cause a drop fire. Any bit of energy that is "absorbed" by the slide moving back is MORE chance of an inertial fire. The slide moving back is analogous to the firing pin moving forward, relatively. Unless the slide moves back far enough to affect the firing pin's reach to the primer, which I'm not sure can happen this way. I'm not sure it can't, mind you. But I disagree with the "energy absorption" reasoning, either way.

 

[Nom de Forum]

A few random comments:

There are some 1911 type pistols in which the manual safety does block the hammer, the Ballester-Molina being one. The safety cams the hammer back off the sear and blocks it. The thinking is the same as the safety system of a Mauser or Springfield rifle.

Jim

The Ballester-Molina is more of a pistol that looks like a 1911 than it is a 1911 type. The internals are quite different and of course there is not a grip safety. Great pistol. Long ago I watched a guy shooting one in IPSC clean the clocks of some 1911 snobs.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If the slide is locked to the frame, then w/e the gun hits has to stop the momentum of the entire gun in order to cause a drop fire. Any bit of energy that is "absorbed" by the slide moving back is MORE chance of an inertial fire.

I don't know what the Radom 35 pistol is like, or what causes a drop fire in that gun. But I suspect something else is going on. Maybe polish engineering.

I'm in over my head on this topic, but three different scenarios seem possible:

1. The gun falls lands on the crown of the barrel with a GI guide rod installed. The barrel and slide won't separate and the firing pin's inertia may allow it to go forward and ignite a primer.
   
2. The gun falls and lands less perpendicularly, such that the slide can move first. In that case, some of the force of the fall could be transferred from the slide to the recoil spring (it can't move without compressing that spring and transferring some of the force of the fall to that spring)., It seems as though some of the full force of the impact will be reduced or delayed when the recoil spring is acted upon. Inertia will still force the firing pin forward, but some of the total force affecting the slide has been attenuated in some way. How much? I haven't a clue. Does it matter? I'm not sure, but it seems it ought to.
   
3. The gun falls and hits flushly on a full-length guide rod. The force of the fall is transferred to the frame via the FLGR, and since the slide and frame are still locked together, the results might be the same as example 1.

I can see how a full-length guide rod in a dropped gun might give a different result than a GI-style guide rod that doesn't land on the end of the barrel, but I just don't understand how a moving slide might affect the firing pin's inertia when some of the force of it's movement is transferred to the recoil sporing.
-------------------

A bit of vaguely related trivia:

I had a Radom for a while, 10+ years ago. I just pulled out a parts diagram looked at it.

The diagram showed the guide rod assembly as having six parts!: a 1) recoil spring guide [quite long but not not nearly full length], 2) spring guide retaining pin at the end away from the muzzle , 3) a recoil spring stop 4) a large diameter recoil spring that fit on the outside of spring guide, 5) an auxiliary recoil spring that rode inside it all, and 6) a recoil spring guide extension that acted as the base, and rested against the barrel lug and frame. That is almost as complicated as the recoil assembly of a SIG X-Five!

The guide rod assembly one I had was MUCH simpler than that -- maybe three parts -- almost like a 1911. I think it was a LATER versoin, when they started cutting corners. I suspect mine wasn't entirely correct. It was a good shooting gun...

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with Jim K.
I think a high percentage of inexplicable "accidental discharges" are actually cases of assault with a deadly weapon that everybody regrets and agrees on a cover story for. Had one here some years ago, although not with a 1911. It was plausible based on knowledge of the particular gun and its failure modes. But the truth gets out.

I conducted my own drop tests with my own gun, previously government property and government inspected. No discharge. I note that most of these mystery shots are with guns produced by people smarter than John Browning, Colt Pt FA Mfg Co Inc, and the US Army.

The MRI shot sounds very strange. We are to understand that a gun went off because the machine's magnetic field drew the internal firing pin obstruction UP whilst pulling the whole gun FORWARD to strike the housing. I didn't know magnetic fields did that sort of thing, but the fields in an MRI are intense and particularly configured.

 

[GLOOB]

It seems as though some of the full force of the impact will be reduced or delayed when the recoil spring is acted upon.

The way I see it, if the slide somehow hits first, thus compressing the recoil spring, that doesn't matter. The spring may spread out the impact that the ground takes by delaying the "hit" of the frame, but the firing pin is in the slide. The frame continuing to move forward has no impact on the firing pin. Slide stops, firing pin keeps going. That's how muzzle down inertial drop fire happens on a 1911.

 

[1911Tuner]

Time to throw a point into the equation that nobody seems to have considered...except JimK...even though he didn't mention it.

With a standard guide rod, if the gun hits straight onto the muzzle...which is pretty much required to make it fire...the barrel would be pushed back until it contacts the vertical impact surface.

That means that the barrel would be completely linked down, taking the cartridge with it...which means that the firing pin couldn't hit the primer. The cushioning effect of the recoil spring would keep the impact from being solid and from stopping the slide abruptly, which would tend to delay the firing pin's travel forward...or at least it would seem.

With a true FLGR that sits flush with the face of the bushing...especially if the bushing flange is thicker than original specs...the barrel would only travel about a 16th inch before the guide rod brought it all to an abrupt halt. At that point, the barrel hasn't started to link down and the primer is still in line with the firing pin, and even though the recoil spring offered a short cushion...the solid impact provided by the rod means that it may not be enough to resist the firing pin's momentum. Bang.

At some point in the near future, I intend to do a live round drop test onto concrete in which I'll work to make sure that the round fires. The reason being to test a theory I've got that it's not as dangerous as it seems on the face of it. There's a pretty good chance that the bullet will never leave the barrel...and even if it does...there won't be enough velocity left to pose much of a hazard above the height of the soles of a pair of tennis shoes, and mainly from concrete or small jacket fragments.

 

[GLOOB]

Time to throw a point into the equation that nobody seems to have considered...except JimK...even though he didn't mention it.

I mentioned it as a possibility.

I have checked this phenomenon on many of my guns. 1911 might be different, and I don't own one or have one in front of me. My guns don't "link down" all the way when you press on the end of the barrel. They start to move down, but they stop cold with the breechface still closed against the back of the cartridge. It requires the continuing movement of the slide to separate the two and for the barrel to drop all the way down.

As stated in my previous post, I am not sure how much if any this affects the firing pin reach to the primer. It looks like a dropfire could happen just the same, but with an offcenter primer hit and a subsequent premature unlocking of the action.

 

[1911Tuner]

My guns don't "link down" all the way when you press on the end of the barrel. They start to move down, but they stop cold with the breechface still closed against the back of the cartridge. It requires the continuing movement of the slide to separate the two and for the barrel to drop all the way down

Then somethin's bad wrong. When the barrel hits the vertical impact surface, it's supposed to be completely linked down with approximately a .012-.015 inch gap between the top of the barrel and the bottom of the first slide lug.

At that point, the link has taken the barrel is down about as far as it can go. Ideally, the barrel should gravity fall maybe another .002-003 inch because you don't want the barrel hitting the frame bed before it hits the VIS...or even at the same time....because that stretches and breaks links and pulls lower lugs off of barrels.

You...might wanna have another look at it.

 

[GLOOB]

No need. There's nothing wrong with my handguns. You have described it right. At least the first part. On a Glock, the difference seems to be the barrel drops a lot more by the movement of the slide (moreso than gravity, I think), after unlocking. Of course this doesn't happen if you are pressing on the front of the barrel, like what would happen in a drop fire.

So after the initial 0.012-.015" of barrel drop in your 1911 (similar on a Glock), the firing pin will still be over a small or large pistol primer. That's as far as the barrel would drop. And the breech will not have separated away from the barrel, significantly, since there's nothing pushing the slide back. Hence it seems like it would still drop fire, even if the frame had moved that far down to completely unlock the action.

The disconnector should have tripped by now, but in a drop fire the disconnector doesn't matter. The firing pin is moving by inertia and bypassing the trigger/sear/hammer, altogether.

When the barrel hits the vertical impact surface

In a drop fire, this is the endpoint. When the barrel hits the vertical impact surface, it's done. And the slide is done. The frame/slide doesn't move in relation to each other past this point beyond what is due to the relatively trivial amount of momentum the slide receives when the barrel/slide bounce off the ground. Is this enough to separate the breech from the barrel far enough to get the firing pin out of range, and does this occur in time? This is the part I don't have a sure answer for, in practice, with a 1911, specifically. I don't think the firing pin generally has to move very far, so I suspect the majority of guns would still drop fire.

 

[1911Tuner]

In a drop fire, this is the endpoint. When the barrel hits the vertical impact surface, it's done. And the slide is done. The frame/slide doesn't move in relation to each other past this point.

Yes. I know.

So after the initial 0.012-.015" of barrel drop in your 1911 (similar on a Glock), the firing pin will still be over a small or large pistol primer.

You forgot to figure in the lugs' height.

Assuming .050 inch tall upper barrel lugs, and an additional .012-.015 inch drop to the bed, the total would be on the order of a 16th inch. (.0625) A large primer's radius is .100 inch...which would place the firing pin strike very near the edge and unlikely to fire the primer. Not impossible...but highly unlikely.

On a Glock, the difference seems to be the barrel drops a lot more by the movement of the slide

We're not talking about Glocks...but because the Glock's operation is essentially a Colt-Browning tilt-barrel short recoil system...the barrel drop timing requirements would still be in effect. The single upper lug still has to have the required clearance with the slide at .250-inch of slide rearward movement. What it does after that is irrelevant.