1911 Barrel Problem?

[GaryK]

I recently traded for a Norince 1911. It is stock except for the sights, a full length guide rod, and an extended slide stop. I have only shot it 175-200 rounds but it shoots well. I found what I believe is a problem when I stripped it after shooting this weekend. The barrel feet have made noticable marks on the back of the slide stop pin. The marks are a slight indention almost as if the barrel is hitting the pin. The front of the barrel lugs are also rounded. Is the fact that the barrel feet are hitting the slide stop causing the barrel lugs to become rounded? What should I do to correct the problem? Remove some metal from the barrel feet? Your help is appreciated.

 

[1911Tuner]

Barrel Problem

Howdy Gary,

There's either a linkdown timing problem...or the link is too long, and the barrel isn't going to bed. The marks are being caused by the link itself rather than the lug feet. Because of the mark on the slidestop crosspin, I
suspect that the link is too long.

Do a simple test:
Remove the recoil system, and install the slide, barrel and bushing on the frame with the slidestop pin through the link but leave the the arm hanging vertically. Pull the slide all the way to the rear, and push the barrel down and back and hold it with medium pressure. See if the slidestop swings freely. It shouldn't bind at all, and should swing freely.

If it binds, the link is too long and gets the pin into a bind when the barrel tries to go to bed. The barrel can't fall freely and the lugs in the slide impact the barrel lugs as the slide recoils. You might want to check the
rear corners of the slide lugs. My bet is that they're rolled, the same as the locking lugs.

Due to the damage to the slidestop pin, it may not bind very much. if you
have access to a good slidestop or a .200 diameter pin, try the test with
one of those.

Since the gun has been tinkered with a little, it's entirely possible that somebody installed a long link in order to tighten the vertical lockup,
without considering that the link can put the barrel in a bind when it falls.
I've seen your problem several times, and it's almost always the result of
a kitchen-table tinkering fool getting hold of a set of long links.

Standin' by...

 

[Dave Sample]

Typical Norinco Barrel. Replace the link and pin with a Wilson Number Three link and an oversize pin. You might consider a new slide stop , also. Good Luck!

 

[Jim K]

Tuner, I am puzzled, or misunderstanding. Are you saying that the barrel feet should NOT contact the slide stop pin? In fact, the feet should ride up evenly on the pin; that not only stabilizes the barrel, but stops the barrel and slide after they go into battery. The barrel should not "ride the link", and the link is not really needed on the return part of the cycle anyway.

I have a stock Norinco in front of me with 8k plus rounds through it, and none of the problems described. The slide stop pin has the bluing removed at the barrel feet, but is not dented. I suspect that is due to a soft slide stop rather than poor fitting.

You are perfectly right about the problems that can be caused by a long link, though. I have seen plenty of them.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

Feet

Jim asked:

Tuner, I am puzzled, or misunderstanding. Are you saying that the barrel feet should NOT contact the slide stop pin?

No no! Didn't mean to implay that, and I see where you got it. I meant that a too-long link would put the slidestop pin in a bind before the barrel got completely linked DOWN. A tiny bit of bind...the stop arm not swinging
free...won't hurt a thing as long as the barrel in in bed. When it binds before the barrel goes to bed, it can cause some major headaches.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that...Haste will eventually be my downfall.

 

[GaryK]

Tuner, you nailed it. I performed the test that you suggested and the link is binding on the slidestop pin. There was also a slight indention on the top of the slidestop pin where the barrel link was hitting. It looks like someone installed a long link somewhere in the gun's past. Do you think a stock barrel link and pin will correct the problem? Thanks for your help.

 

[1911Tuner]

Long Link?

Howdy Gary,

First let's be sure that it really is a long link.

Hold the barrel in front of you horizontally and swing the link back and forth from vertical to about 25 degrees toward the muzzle. If .200
diameter pin were through the link...would the pin touch or nearly touch
the lower lug at any point from the forward curve all the way to vertical...
or would the link hold the pin away from the lug at all points?

Also...If the pin were through the link, would it fit the radius formed by the
feet at the back of the lower lug AND touch the underside of the lug at
the same time? OR...Would the pin contact the back curve closer to the
tips of the feet?

A correct link should lightly touch the lower lug just as it swings around the
forward curve and bear on the bottom of the lug as the barrel goes to battery. (Link about one degree PAST vertical) Vertical lockup is properly
achieved by the slidestop pin bearing upward on the bottom of the lug.
If the barrel is locked by the link, it can cause your problem...depending on how MUCH too long the link is. Some people incorrectly believe that the
link locks the barrel, and will install a long link in order to tighten the lockup,
and get into trouble.

If this is what's happened to your gun, and the damage to the upper lugs
and slide isn't extensive, installing the right link will correct the problem.
You probably want to have the affected areas inspected by a gunsmith
to assess the total damage, and what your best course of action would be.

Standin' by for the link report...

 

[Dave Sample]

I aplogize for the advice I gave you. Please disregard it. I have only re linked a dozen or so of these and they did 3/4ths of an inch at 25 yards all day long with a good shooter on the other end. I also replaced the barrel bushing with a NM one. I used to have some targets around here to back that up but I had to pitch them a while back.

 

[GaryK]

Dave, I apologize, I didn't mean to offend you. I am sure that your response was correct. It didn't explain what was happening inside my gun though. I have been a revolver guy for years and am still figuring out how 1911's operate. I am trying to learn and this site is proving invaluable to me. Threads like this have taught me a lot. Please bear with me if I have to hear things from more than one person before they sink in.

 

[1911Tuner]

Advice

Just to set the record straight, Dave was correct on the Norinco barrels.
All but one that I've checked would put the slidestop pin in a light bind
with a little pressure on the barrel. Light binding isn't right, but it normally
doesn't do the damage to the slidestop pin that you have. That comes from somebody sticking a .299 link in the gun in the mistaken belief that it
will lock the barrel up tight and make the gun more accurate...which it
doesn't.

I nailed this one because I used to see a lot of it. Every guy who went to a gunshow where the Accur-Tune man had a table would buy a long link and go home to stick it in his gun. They'd do it on a Saturday afternoon
and go shoot the gun on Sunday to see how well it shot. I usually got the
gun on the bench by Wednesday. One week...right after a big show in
Greensboro...I got four guns in one day over the course of an hour. Two
had broken slidestops and one had a cracked barrel lug. I explained what had happened and the guy went home and installed a long link in another gun. I got that one a week later.

Cheers all!

Tuner

 

[1911Tuner]

Advice

Whoops! Doubletap...I'll delete this one later.

 

[Jim K]

This is one of those situations where the solution is about worse than the problem. Folks think that the barrel and slide locking lugs have to be tightly engaged. They think that a long link will achieve that, and it will. But, if the link is too long, the result is that the link acts as a wedge, pushing the barrel up and the slide stop pin down and wearing or even bending the slide stop pin. That also means the barrel is "riding the link" in lockup, that is the barrel foot is not touching the slide stop pin at the top, only the link is. The barrel then becomes like a fat man on a unicycle, it is sort of wobbly sitting on the link alone.

The right way is for the barrel foot to ride up on the slide stop pin, giving solid support to the barrel; the link at that point should not really engage the pin at all or should not be applying pressure. When the barrel begins to move back, the foot slips back off the slide stop pin, and the link drags it downward, unlocking the barrel from the slide and allowing the slide to continue the rest of the cycle. The distance in the barrel foot from the point where the slide stop pin sits to the point where the link takes over is the distance the barrel travels completely locked to the slide. Of course, to get all this to work right requires strict adherence to specifications by the manufacturer; throwing in parts that maybe might sorta fit just won't do it.

Most of us know the 1911 is recoil operated, but rarely consider just what that means. When the gun is fired, the recoil effect applies first to the barrel, since that is the part that contains the moving bullet. The barrel then moves the slide, because they are locked together, until the barrel is off the slide stop pin and the link begins to unlock the barrel and slide.

Many people think gas pressure operates the 1911; that is not really true. Pressure causes the bullet to move, and it is that forward movement that causes the backward movement of recoil. Pressure alone will not do it, as can be proven if the barrel is blocked so the bullet cannot move. If the bullet does not move, the gun does not operate. The same is true of all other recoil-operated pistols, the Luger, Mauser C96, BHP, Beretta M9, P.38, Nambu, etc.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

Links,etc

Yep...What Jim said.

 

[1911Tuner]

re: What Jim Said

Well, We might get into a gentlemanly debate on that Thrust Vector thing... But on everything else...YEP!

What say, Mr. Keenan? Are ya up for a discussion? I'd rather go to a fresh thread for it.

 

[GaryK]

Tuner, I took the barrel off last night and checked it per your response yesterday. It was long. I am going to track down a stock (.278) link and pin and see if that fixes it. Dave mentioned the Wilson #3 and an oversized pin. Is the hole in the Norinco barrel larger than standard or do I need to ream the hole to use an oversized pin? I believe that the Wilson # 3 link is a .278 link (if I interperated the listing in Brownell's right). I will let you know how it comes out. Thanks.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Howdy Gary,

You can get the link and .156 pin from Brownells for about 12 bucks total,
including shipping.

I have one concern. If the hole in the lug is wallowed out...which it may well be with as much hard contact that you had...a .156 pin may not be enough. The hole may need to be reamed for a slightly larger pin. The
new pin shoudln't be an easy fit, but it shouldn't require hard hammering to
get through the hole either. Also, if the hole is out-of-round, it will continue to wallow with use, even if the new pin is a good fit.

If your existing pin is still tight in the hole, there's a good chance that the .156 pin will be okay. Use a dial caliper to measure the hole 90 degrees apart in several places to see if it's round. More than .001 out,
and it'll need to be cleaned up.

It would also be a good idea to have the locking lugs and slide checked to evaluate the extent of the damage.

I'll look up the part numbers and add to this reply.

Stand by...

Part Numbers:
Link...965-142-278 ($5.25)
Pin.....080-816-156 ($5.80)
US Mail Small package Shipping...$3.75

1-800-741-0015

Tuner

 

[hnm201]

peening on norinco barrel lugs

Gary,

do your lugs look like this?

and

I just got my rinco back from the shop that replaced the front sight (aftermarktet) that had popped off. I had posted about this gun on another friend. I had some failures that were "fixed" by replacing the slide stop. I fitted an ed brown hard core extractor to it and took it to the range yesterday and put 100rds 230gr FMJ and 100rds 203 gr JHP with no failures. So, it ain't broken, but I did notice the wear on the lugs.

Should I do something about this now or only worry about it if it becomes a problem? I'd like to carry this gun. In fact I am carrying it right now in my new comptac gurkha.

My friend from China:

 

[GaryK]

Dominic, mine looked similar to the ones in your picture. I had mine fixed. If you let it go you risk damaging the lugs on the slide. Mine was hitting the slide stop hard enough that it bent it. I ended up replacing the barrel and slidestop.

 

[Old Fuff]

If you are not sure what's hitting what, and where, coat the surfaces in question with a wide black marker.

Then reassemble the gun, hand cycle it a few times, and disassemble it again. Wherever the ink is rubbed off should tell the story.

 

[Dave Sample]

I really like Norinco Barrels. They are triple hard chromed with excellent rifling and a good crown. I have less respect for the slides they live in and that shows up on the picture of the upper barrel lugs. What I see in the picture is that the link is not pulling down the barrel at the right time when the gun recoils. Nor is it letting the barrel go back into lock up at the right time. That is why I always install a new link and pin in these guns. Do you all think I do that just for fun? It is a problem that I address and I really do not care if you do it or not. These guns are crude machines to me. Seems to me like a $15.00 bushing, a $3.50 link, and a $1.00 pin is worth the effort to get all the accuracy there is out of that barrel.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Problem...

...is that the barrel isn't unlocking from the slide early enough for the slide to whistle past it. A too-long link can do it...but damage like yours is usually due to
either the impact surface in the frame being too far forward...the lower lug being located too far rearward...or a little of both. A short link can also cause it because
it can't unlock the barrel. With a too-short link, the forward edge of the lug is
still being supported by the slidestop crosspin when the link stops the barrel's rearward path and tries to direct it downward. The barrel can't fall because of the pin...and the slide lugs crash into the barrel lugs.

Goin' by the pictures...your barrel is toast, and likely the slide too. Sorry, m'friend.

 

[Dave Sample]

It is an easy fix. I can do it in about 15 minutes. But if you throw it away, throw it my way. I have three web sites with my address and phone numbers on them and a search engine will turn me up. I will be glad to pay the shipping costs, too! www.captaineagle.us will work.

 

[1911Tuner]

Easy Fix?

Cap'n...Better put your readin' glasses on and take a closer look at how bad those lugs are rolled and flanged...You'd have to remove so much from the tops
that the lugs'd have about .025 inch engagement...and so much from the front
that the barrel would slap back and forth in the slide like a baseball bat in a doorway.

Well...If you're game, I'll leave this one to you, brothuh...

 

[hnm201]

My barrel and slide are toast?

Well. Before reading the posts above I took the gun to the local smith and he said to not worry about it but to consider a tighter barrel bushing. So I went to a buddy's house and fished through his spare 1911 parts bin. I found an Ed Brown bushing that fit the barrel much more tightly than the Norinco's bushing, and swapped that out. I I then took the gun to the range and shot 250rds CCI blazer and 50rds 230gr JHP. No stoppages and the gun shot like a rifle. I love the short gi-style trigger. The callus on the back of my hand is growing nicely.

Perhaps, is it possible that my images make the peening look more severe than it actually is? I've examined the underside of my slide and I can't see any wear on the flanges (if that is what they are called, where the lugs lock into it). I'll update this post tomorrow with a hi-res scan of the lugs. It looks to me like a shorter link would put the hole too far into the bottom lug on the barrel for the pin to go through.

Fuff, Dave and Tuner - I really appreciate all of your advice and believe me when I say that I am grateful! I am not planning on throwing out the pistol any time soon. In fact, I am carrying it right now. Plan of actions I am considering are :

1) Keep the pistol as is and keep shooting the heck out of it until something breaks loose.

2) Buy/locate a cheap barrel and swap it out with the rinco's and see what happens.

3) Buy another Rinco.

 

[Dave Sample]

Hey! We all know that Tuner HAS TO BE RIGHT! We also know that I have to be wrong. I LOVE IT! The pictures were enough for me to make a judgement call. I have fixed a lot worse barrels than that one and I would have loved to add that barrel to my collection. Now that you have a decent bushing in it, why not take some more wrong advice from this old know-nothing and re link that barrel and see what happens! The link forces the barrel into lock up and it can ride over the slide stop pin and work just fine. You can take a small file that you never want to use again and relieve those upper lugs in front and it will be as good as new. You will ruin the file on the hard chrome, but we always file these down for wadcutters anyhow. Tricks of the trade.............................