1911 Ejection Angle Tuning

[edwardware]

I'm planning a modification to my Colt Combat Commander that's not address by Kuhnhausen, and I wonder if anyone has any relevant experience.

My preferred HP handload is a 230gr XTP loaded to COAL=1.250. With a bit of throat reaming, this works great in all my .45s. . . except:


My Combat Commander wants to eject at a slightly lower angle than the other 1911s, and the front of the XTP's nose jambs against an unbeveled spot in the ejection port. I know I could bevel the spot, but I'd like to understand how the tune the extractor and ejector to angle the cartridge nose up a bit more.

I think I should be able to do this by removing a little material from the inside of the extractor hook at the bottom, and/or by cutting the ejector nose at a slight backward angle.

Any thoughts?

 

[BBBBill]

Getting the extractor right first is a prerequisite. What is you hook to breach face dimension. Spec is .075" = .010" (.085" max). Almost every 1911 I've examined in the last few years has been excessive. The closer you get to minimum spec the better. Some of the pros building top tier bullseye guns go less than spec at around.068". Getting that right also often eliminates problems with the hook climbing the case bevel. Folks are often filing on the hook to eliminate that and weakening the hook in the process. Also fitting an oversized firing pin stop can/will eliminate clocking while assuring helping to position the extractor correctly fore and aft. This work will help with consistent ejection. Once that is accomplished you can play with ejector nose angles and decide whether a little relief at the ejection port is needed.

 

[edwardware]

Getting the extractor right first is a prerequisite. What is you hook to breach face dimension. Spec is .075" = .010" (.085" max). Almost every 1911 I've examined in the last few years has been excessive. The closer you get to minimum spec the better. Some of the pros building top tier bullseye guns go less than spec at around.068".

I will check this afternoon after work!

Also fitting an oversized firing pin stop can/will eliminate clocking while assuring helping to position the extractor correctly fore and aft. This work will help with consistent ejection.

Already done with a fitted EGW oversized stop.

 

[drband]

If your brass does not hit you in the face and it ejects in a consistent direction I would call it good.

From your pic: are you concerned about ejection when you hand cycle your commander?
I'm a little confused about why that's an issue as long as you are good to go when firing the gun. COAL should be ok since you say you've reamed the chamber and your xtp bullets work (feed when firing).

Please elaborate if you have time.

I too, have fitted an EGW oversized FPS and have tuned my ejector a bit to eliminate brass-to-face on a 4" RIA. I think the shorter barreled 1911s should eject just as consistently as a government model. Good on you for working on this.

 

[Cemetery21]

I think the OP is wanting to change the angle of ejection of a Loaded round.

 

[drband]

I think the OP is wanting to change the angle of ejection of a Loaded round.

Why? That's my question.

 

[edwardware]

Getting the extractor right first is a prerequisite. What is you hook to breach face dimension. Spec is .075" = .010" (.085" max). Almost every 1911 I've examined in the last few years has been excessive.

I measured with a feeler gauge, and the extractor hook-to-face dimension is 0.092". For comparison sake I measured an SR1911 Commander that doesn't have this issue, and its hook-to-face dimension is 0.101". Both guns already have mild-interference fit FP stops.

Getting that right also often eliminates problems with the hook climbing the case bevel.

In both cases, the hook climbs the case bevel, and pushes it about 0.010 off the breech face.

So, I guess I want a new extractor to start with. Wilson, Ed Brown, Cylinder and Slide, and EGW all offer Series 80 45ACP extractors; I don't see any point ordering a Colt part. Will the Ed Brown do?

If your brass does not hit you in the face and it ejects in a consistent direction I would call it good. . .

I want to be able to clear the weapon without having to reach over with my third hand and poke the round down into the mag well. . . and this is one aspect of 1911 tuning I haven't done yet.

 

[BBBBill]

Wilson (specifically the Bulletproof), Harrison, and EGW are the only ones that I know that position the hook closer to the breech face. I can't say about the Ed Brown. Harrison and EGW also offer them with no slot so that you can cut your own. A bit much for the home hobbyist unless you have a mill, but popular with the pros.

 

[drband]

I want to be able to clear the weapon without having to reach over with my third hand and poke the round down into the mag well. . . and this is one aspect of 1911 tuning I haven't done yet.

I can understand that.

I used a Wilson Combat Bulletproof extractor in my 4" RIA and am very pleased with it. I had to tune my ejector to get my brass to eject lower since it was hitting me in the forehead. Trial and error for a bit got it done! Good luck with yours!

 

[Drail]

Colt 1911s have always had the live round ejection problem. Their solution was to mill a scallop on the inside of the port to allow the bullet nose to clear. But for many years Colt would tell owners the gun isn't designed or built to eject live rounds and to stop worrying about it. Do not try to fix this by filing on the extractor or you will start having other problems. You could try another ejector but I think it is misguided to alter a working gun to get it to eject live rounds. How often do you need to do that?

 

[edwardware]

Colt 1911s have always had the live round ejection problem. . . Do not try to fix this by filing on the extractor or you will start having other problems. You could try another ejector but I think it is misguided to alter a working gun to get it to eject live rounds. How often do you need to do that?

I too have serious reservations about altering a situation that's been 100% reliable at it's primary. . . but I do clear this weapon a couple times a month (range, lube, cleaning, etc) and it's annoying to need my third hand to get it open.

I admit my primary interest in doing this is for my own education, so fitting a new extractor will accomplish that without compromising the factory extractor. I can always put it back!

 

[drband]

Here's an opinion, so take it for what it's worth. I don't think you can meaningfully alter ejection angle for loaded round clearance for hand cycling your pistol. The slide operates at a much higher speed when firing, making those adjustments mean something.
When you clear your gun, cycling by hand, the speed of slide movement may not be adequate to affect the angle of ejection. It's a complex process.

 

[drband]

When altering my ejector, I did it on the range, firing 5 rounds, filing the ejector tip, repeat the process noting ejection angle changes. it was helpful to have another observer watching ejection.

I really couldn't tell any changes when hand cycling during the process.

 

[Maj Dad]

I drop the clip & hold my left hand so that as I retract the slide it covers the ejection port & the round falls through the mag well.

 

[Drail]

I shot one particular SA for years in USPSA and at the end of every stage to unload and show clear you had to let that last round rattle down and fall out of the magwell. I never though it was a big deal - I was just happy to have a gun that ran 100% during matches. Your best bet is to have someone mill out the scallop cut that Colt uses on their pistols. It looks a little wierd but it works.

 

[edwardware]

Colt 1911s have always had the live round ejection problem. Their solution was to mill a scallop on the inside of the port to allow the bullet nose to clear. But. . .

Drail, is this the scallop you're referring to?

 

[Jim Watson]

The Live Round Scallop is cut into the FRONT of the ejection port opening it nearly to the locking surface.

Colt 1911s have always had the live round ejection problem.

The one here doesn't. My real deal USGI ca 1918 will flip a live round a considerable distance upon "unload and show clear."

I checked a few other 1911 pattern pistols on hand.
Guns with the somewhat extended ejector like .38 Super or Commander were a tossup; some will clear a live round, some won't. A real Commander would not, a real Combat Commander would. G.M.s with that ejector were apparently random, some small difference in ejector or slide travel.
Guns with more extension for IPSC SS and IDPA CDP will not, they must be unloaded by dropping the magazine and letting the chambered round fall down the magazine well.

 

[edwardware]

The Live Round Scallop is cut into the FRONT of the ejection port opening it nearly to the locking surface

Yup, that's what meant. . . the semicircular cut at the lower front corner of the port, just to the back of the rear lug.

That seems to be the easy solution.

 

[Drail]

Yup, that's the cut. I worked on 1911s for 10 years and the majority of Colts I had on the bench would have some degree of difficulty ejecting "some" live rounds (depending on the round - mostly ball) - even with a stock ovt. style ejector. An extended ejector makes the problem even worse. No other brand I worked on had this problem. I never experienced it with any Springfield or Norincos or Baers, which were the majority of the 1911s I worked on. All of my Springfields will kick out dummy ball rounds as fast as you can cycle the slide and they all have extended ejectors. It depends on the dimensions of the ejector and the length of the round. Colt told their customers for years before they started making the relief cut that it was not a "problem" or "defect" and the gun was not designed to eject live rounds - it was designed to eject empty cases. Then they "fixed" it. Today if you call Les Baer and complain that his guns will not "slingshot" he will tell you that it is not a "problem" or a "defect". I happen to agree with him. It is what it is. If you insist on slingshotting your slide - don't buy a Baer. I don't consider failure to eject live rounds or to slingshot a defect if the gun will feed, fire and eject 100%. Opinions vary....... One last thing here - covering the port with your hand while you rack the slide to clear a live round is a Very Bad Thing. Ask anyone who has had a round set off by the ejector while the gun is out of battery and gone to the emergency room if they will ever do that again. And it has happened more than you might think.

 

[edwardware]

Yup, that's the cut. . .

Excellent, thanks for the background and insight. I think I'll study some pictures and cut the scallop.

 

[Drail]

You are most welcome. The scallop cut is good because it won't change any other operational factors of the pistol. Be very careful ejecting live rounds. If you can obtain, buy or make up some dummy rounds that would be best. Do you have a mill or will you Dremel it out? I only ask because it is VERY EASY to slip with a Dremel and scar the slide. But it is doable.

 

[Jim Watson]

At the IDPA Nationals, first or second year, I heard a muffled Pop and saw a guy coming off the range with a bleeding hand. He had covered the ejection port at the Unload and Show Clear, the primer hit the ejector, and he got bit. Trip to the emergency room, a big bandage around his hand, and he was reduced to Spectator status.

I guess if you had a 100% gun and ammo you wouldn't have to worry about ejecting a loaded but dud round in a hurry.

 

[Drail]

As a former RO for mostly USPSA, pins, and steel matches I would advise to never get in a hurry clearing a gun. Take your time and think very hard about how you do it. We'll wait. I have in the past "advised" shooters to never cover the port with their hand. Some of the looks I would get from them were priceless.......

 

[edwardware]

Do you have a mill or will you Dremel it out? I only ask because it is VERY EASY to slip with a Dremel and scar the slide. But it is doable.

I've learned to do some very careful work with a rotary tool and a good set of files. Vigilance and patience usually gets it done.

Someday when I grow up, I'll have a mill.

Thanks again for the guidance.

 

[Drail]

I understand completely. I cut port flares on 1911 slides for years with nothing but a Dremel and never lost control and scarred a slide. But I've seen plenty of guys slip with one. I learned early a huge help was to use a vise large enough to give you a place to rest your Dremel hand on to give you more control and to use the thin handheld chuck. Just having your hand resting on something solid makes a big difference.