1911 Failure To Eject with Wilson 47D

[Patrick Gookin]

Hey guys,
It's been a while since I've been on THR and I've got a question. I wanted to get into USPSA competitions, so I bought a 3-pack of Wilson Combat 47D magazine from brownells. With all three of them, the second to last round fails to eject. I can put in 8 rounds, 3 rounds, or just 2, but it's always the second to last that fails. I have an old 8 round Wilson Combat mag and an ancient 7 round magazine that both feed and eject with no problem.
The ejector does feel slightly loose, but then again, it has always worked fine with every other magazine I've ever had in it. Do I need to ditch these new mags, or is there a way I can make them work.

 

[jbkebert]

I had a few hang ups with some recently purchased wilson 47d mags. I had never had even of a hint of a failure in my Kimber until them. I constacted wilson and they told me to load and unload the mag dozens of times by hand.

According to them this loosens the spring up and gets everything moving correctly. I did as they suggested and have had no more problems. ticks me off a little for the price you pay for a wilson mag. You would think they could run fresh from the package. Don't give up just load and unload them till your thumb gets sore and they will work.

 

[Jaymo]

I'd rather have a mag spring that starts out too strong, until broken in, than to have one that starts out perfect and gets too weak.
Not being combative, mind you. It's frustrating, to be sure.

 

[Tomcat47]

I think I would just get a paint stirring stick and push em down about 20 times or so....

Or better yet! keep pumpin lead....and with the Wilsons shoot 6 times and drop the magazine and reload it.

In about 200 rounds see if it will empty the mags ??

 

[theQman23]

I have used the 47D's okay, but I was turned onto the tripp research units and I love them. They have the same molded anti-canting design that keeps them from going nose down, but they also have a metal strap around the follower for the slide stop.

Not that others don't work ok as well, but I believe the tripp units to be superior and at 35 bucks a piece well worth the investment.

 

[MCMXI]

I don't think this a problem with the springs being too strong ... just the opposite in fact. With more rounds in the magazine, there's a greater force pushing the round up against the feed lips and on each round in the magazine. As the round count diminishes, the force pushing the rounds up and the forces on each round decreases. The result is that the second to last round drags the last round forward in the magazine until the nose of the last round stops against the feed ramp. As the second to last case is ejected, it runs into the nose of the last round. This is one of the reasons that so many 1911s are unreliable with ammunition loaded to lengths shorter than standard 230gr FMJ or MC. Many of them will work just fine until the second to last round or last round. The trick is to keep that last round back in the magazine.

As a test, load two rounds, drop or rack the slide, eject the magazine, make sure that the last round is seated to the rear of the magazine, insert magazine, shoot two rounds. If you have reliable function with this method, you'll know that the last round is being dragged forward by the second to last round as it is chambered.

 

[Tomcat47]

^^ I think 1858 nailed this problem!

Let us know!

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Wow 1858, I would've never thought of that. I just tested it out and you are correct. I put 2 rounds in the magazine, cycled one into the chamber, dropped the mag, and lo and behold, the last round had moved forward at least 1/8 inch.
Something I noticed with these new Wilson mags is that the follower is smooth unlike my old Wilson mag. My old mag has a bump on the follower that holds the rim of the last round in place.



The old Wilson magazine is on the left.
The new Wilson magazine is on the right.

Even though I'm 99.999% sure this is the problem, it's another perfect excuse to shoot some paper tomorrow. I'll definitely post back and let you all know how it went. Thanks for the tips everyone!

 

[Rockfish61]

I have used the 47D's okay, but I was turned onto the tripp research units and I love them. They have the same molded anti-canting design that keeps them from going nose down, but they also have a metal strap around the follower for the slide stop.

Not that others don't work ok as well, but I believe the tripp units to be superior and at 35 bucks a piece well worth the investment.

Here, here, I put a trip kit in every one of my Wilsons, Eliminated type 1 MF from the picture

 

[1911Tuner]

Uh...Well...Let's look at a couple other things.

Cartridges in the magazine "ride forward" from recoil every time the gun fires. It's that pesky Newton and his first law again.

Because the rounds in the magazine are pressed against the center rail, as soon as the slide starts to move backward, it drags the top round backward with it.

When the slide uncovers the magazine, the next round pops up into position, and bumps the empty case, helping it to roll out of the extractor's grip, even before it hits the ejector...unless the gun has an extended ejector. Then, the ejector alone is tasked with kicking the case off the hook.

If the magazine spring is weak, it may not bump the case hard enough, or it may not even get the next round up in time to bump it at all.

Check to see if the extractor claw is bottoming out in the case extractor groove.

 

[MCMXI]

Cartridges in the magazine "ride forward" from recoil every time the gun fires. It's that pesky Newton and his first law again.

However, the forward movement of the rounds in the magazine is limited by the front of the magazine tube. This isn't the case for the round pressed up against the feed lips.

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Unfortunately, the weather kept me from going to the range today, but I certainly will tomorrow. 1911Tuner, I'm not very familiar with 1911 terminology, but I'm assuming you're talking about the rounded part of the extractor just aft of the claw. To answer your question, yes, the rounded part DOES contact the slide.



My camera can't focus very well close up, so it's a little fuzzy. Again extractor tension seems OK and there doesn't appear to be any clocking (firing pin stop fits snug).

Here's a picture of my ejector. Like I said, I'm not up to speed yet on terminology or the variance in parts, but it looks to me like a pretty standard ejector.



After cycling the slide by hand hundereds of times, I'm starting to see how the magazine plays in extraction. I noticed that if the empty brass rides up as far as it can on the bolt face (not far), the ejector won't even contact the empty brass. I also noticed that when there is only 1 round in the magazine, the angle of the round is different from the same magazine with 2+ rounds in it. When the mag only has 1 round in it, the nose of that round is much higher than with more rounds. I took another picture to help illustrate this. The fully loaded magazine is in the background; the magazine with 1 round in it is in the foreground.



Do you guys think a slightly lighter recoil spring would help? I don't know what # spring is in the pistol right now, but it just feels heavy. Would it help at all if I put a 16 lb spring in the pistol. I was thinking the slide would recoil faster, giving the magazine less time to affect ejection.

I'd like to compete in a USPSA match in a week, so I'd like to get this fixed before then. If nothing else, I could do what Tomcat suggested and drop the mag after 6 rounds and load a fresh one.

 

[1911Tuner]

However, the forward movement of the rounds in the magazine is limited by the front of the magazine tube. This isn't the case for the round pressed up against the feed lips.

What you're not taking into account is that the center rail of the slide keeps the top round depressed until the slide moves backward far enough to uncover the magazine. With the slide in battery, the top round can't contact the feed lips.

The round can't move forward any further than the lower part of the feed ramp. To see how far the round is depressed, lock a full magazine into the gun with the slide in battery as opposed to doing it with the slide locked to the rear. Pay attention to the last 1/8th inch before the magazine locks in, when the mag spring starts to resist. That's how far the round sits below the lips.

As the slide moves in recoil...the frictional contact with the rail works to drag the round backward, or...at the very least...it maintains its position until the empty case is above it, close to hitting the ejector. With a standard length ejector, the next round in the magazine pops up to the feed lips, and bumps the case. If the ejector is longer than standard...the case hits it before the round can move up.

In short, the round in the magazine can't interfere with the empty case unless there's a serious problem with the center rail's distance above the frame...and if that's the issue...the distance above the frame won't let the rail operate the disconnect. Ejection is the least of your problems.

 

[1911Tuner]

Patty...What I'm referring to is the length of the claw from the tensioning wall to the tip of the hook. I like to see about .035-.038 inch. Any longer, and it can dig into the rear face of the rim as the case strikes the ejector and rotates.

Also...from your picture...it looks like your extractor has a little too of the tensioning wall in th breechface area. That means a lot of deflection, possibly leading to RTB issues. Cutting a light bevel on the bottom corner of the wall will help to alleviate that by making a camming surface for the rim to spring the extractor open gradually.

 

[1911Tuner]

Let's move on.

The top round in the magazine can not move into the path of the extracting case. Can't happen.

What can happen...and I suspect that this is it...is that the extractor can drop the case low enough so that it hits the magazine feed lips and gets yanked off the claw before it hits the ejector and before the slide moves far enough to let the next round bump it.

This is most often due to the extractor clocking...rotating counter clockwise in its channel...and letting the case fall low on the breechface. If this happens on the last round, it can actually stuff the case partway back into the magazine and keep the follower from contacting the slidestop lug. The slide fails to lock, and tries to feed the empty case...crushing it between the breechface and the barrel hood. The picture of the jammed case in the breech area offers strong indication of that very thing.

You have an extractor problem.

 

[TonyT]

I use the inexpensive Metalform magazines purchased from CDNN and have never had a function problem with them in 6 different 1911's.

 

[MCMXI]

What you're not taking into account is that the center rail of the slide keeps the top round depressed until the slide moves backward far enough to uncover the magazine. With the slide in battery, the top round can't contact the feed lips.

Good point and one that I overlooked. But it does seem that the last round in the magazine changes the position of the fired case of the second to last round during extraction. The images on the left side show extraction of an empty case with 2+ rounds in the magazine compared to just one round in the magazine on the right. With only one round in the magazine, as soon as the case mouth clears the barrel hood it's kicked up long before the case head hits the ejector. This particular pistol does have an extended ejector and has no issues of any kind with SWC loads, 185gr/230gr JHP or 230gr FMJ/MC.

I realize that this is a different problem than the OP is describing, but I'm still trying to figure out why many 1911s have RTB failures with the second to last round, particularly with ammunition that's shorter than the SAAMI .45 Auto spec. I've experience this problem myself and still consider it to be an issue with the position of the second to last round relative to the feed ramp.

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Hey guys, just got back from the range. I was able to some better detailed pictures (hopefully). All 3 images in this post are of the same jam.


This picture just shows the same old jam (just figured I'd post it).


This image shows that the extractor still has a grip on the case.


This image shows the extractor before the jam was cleared. It never looked like it was clocking to me, but my eyes aren't really trained for this sort of thing.

Also, I don't have a caliper or even a ruler to measure anything at the moment, so I can't take measurements. Sorry I can't be as helpful as you all are being, but I'll try to acquire one soon.

For some reason I really don't think it's the extractor. Again, I know basically nothing about 1911s, but the pistol extracts and ejects every round from every other magazine that's been in it since I've been shooting it. However, it does throw the brass very erratically. Sometimes it goes out at a 90 degree angle to the right, sometimes it goes over my head, sometimes it goes forward, and sometimes it'll even hit me in the face. I feel like I've got a good, consistent grip on it, so I really don't think it's me.

When I started this thread and found out that some Wilson's needed to be broken in, I loaded up the magazines to capacity and never unloaded them unless I was experimenting with extraction. So, for pretty much 2 days, they were loaded to capacity. When I went to the range today, all 8 rounds fired perfectly from all of them. It wasn't until they sat for a while uncompressed that they started jamming again. I found that if I loaded them with 8 rounds then stripped off 6 and immediately began firing, there wasn't an issue. Maybe these magazines do just need to be broken in. I just don't know if I'll ever trust their reliability though.

I'll post some detailed pictures of my extractor here shortly.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

However, it does throw the brass very erratically. Sometimes it goes out at a 90 degree angle to the right, sometimes it goes over my head, sometimes it goes forward, and sometimes it'll even hit me in the face.

That is another clue to an extractor problem. ??

Note the top round in the magazine, below the trapped case. It isn't still in the magazine, but is trying to feed out of it (note how it has nearly climbed the ramp). There has to be a clue in there somewhere.

(I am trying to learn as well.)

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Yes, my understanding is that after the pistol fires, the empty is extracted from the chamber, pushed slightly upwards by the next bullet in the magazine which causes it to just barely miss the ejector. The slide continues all the way back and as it returns to battery it strips the top round off of the magazine, which cannot chamber because of the empty brass that has failed to eject.
Again, I feel I need to say that I'm a beginner, but it seems to me that it could be 1 or 2 things:

1:
The extractor is slightly rotating (or worn) and as the empty case is being extracted, it gets pushed too far upward by the next bullet in the magazine which causes it to fail to engage the ejector. However, upon MY observation (I'm not trained and don't know what to look for), the extractor does not appear to be clocking. This still doesn't rule out that the extractor is out of spec.

2:
The ejector is a standard ejector and does not extend past the mag well. Maybe if the pistol had an extended ejector, it would eject the empties before the round in the magazine came into play.

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Hey everyone, the problem is fixed. I just installed a new ejector and extractor. I went to the range today and fired 150 rounds with no jams or anything. Also, the ejected brass isn't in a perfect pile, but they no longer smack me in the head, so that's a plus.

 

[1911Tuner]

Whooped'em ag'in, Josey!

 

[MCMXI]

Whooped'em ag'in, Josey!

Not until someone explains this ...

I have an old 8 round Wilson Combat mag and an ancient 7 round magazine that both feed and eject with no problem.

Was it an extractor or ejector issue ... or both ... and why only the second to last round with the new Wilson Combat magazines? Changing out parts has fixed the problem but hasn't explained it. In hindsight, if you'd changed the extractor first it might have indicated if it was an ejector problem (loose you said).

 

[theQman23]

that ejector looks really short to me. You dont need the old school type that sticks way out over the bullet, but your ejector should reach up just a touch beyond the back of the case when a magazine is inserted. Looking at your photos, I think if you put a longer ejector in there you'll be much improved.
just .02 worth from a guy who had the same problem before

 

[theQman23]

oops, I'm an idiot. I posted that before you said you were done, I was gonig to quickly, my bad. Anyway, the longer ejector is no doubt partially to blame for your success.
shoot safe