1911 thumb safety click test fail

[Truerilley]

Hello all, long time gun owner. Nearly brand new to the 1911 platform. Long story short. I was recently gifted a citadel (armscore) m1911. She's a little beat up. Namely holster wear. Did the basic function checks. passed all. However, I recently read about the "click test" so I looked and did the original check on the thumb safety. Then with the thumb safety on. Gave the trigger a decent squeeze, thumbed the hammer a tiny bit and noticed a slight click. But after a couple trips to the range,she's preformed flawlessly. Also passed all other checks. Any thoughts and insight would be very much appreciated.

 

[edwardware]

Not surprising, and provided it's slight, and the hammer won't fall off with wiggling (rounded sear or hooks), I wouldn't worry.

Fitting a 1911 safety is a good place to learn some hand fitting. You might try it.

 

[fastbolt]

https://cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

 

[Truerilley]

Not surprising, and provided it's slight, and the hammer won't fall off with wiggling (rounded sear or hooks), I wouldn't worry.

Fitting a 1911 safety is a good place to learn some hand fitting. You might try it.

Yes sir, the click is with a very! Light thumbing of the hammer. It otherwise passes all checks. I see and feel no wiggle with the hammer cock or uncocked. I tried the same test with the grip safety and heard nothing.

 

[unclenunzie]

The thumb safety blocks the sear from releasing the hammer, effectively locking the hammer.

With the thumb safety engaged and the trigger is pulled/pressed, your sear moved toward the release point of the hammer hooks. The click when the hammer is then pulled back is the sear returning to where it was. How far it moved is the question. The sear/hammer engagement area is very small. The safety check failing is telling you that the thumb safety needs to be refitted, assuming all else is in spec.

 

[Slamfire]

I really don't trust the thumb safety as all it is, is a sear blocking safety.

Great video at the URL




Now I do have Walt Kuleck's book "The M1911 Complete Owner's Guide" and within he claims a hammer blocking function for the thumb safety. Maybe the thumb safety has been modified since 1911, but originally, the thumb safety was on the pistol only so the pistol could be safe with one hand. It was not a permanent safety, the discussion revealed in Clawson's book with MG Croizer clearly shows, it was a temporary safety. Temporary till the Cavalry Trooper could lower the hammer and put the pistol in the flap holster.

I love Kuleck's book, but he is a cocked and locked fan boy, and those guys will find things that are not really there. So, I will go with @1911Tuner assessment that the hammer will wipe off the safety if the sear fails. The next time I take all my 1911 trigger parts out, I will try to assemble so I can hold the hammer back, with the thumb safety on. Maybe not installing the sear will allow me to test whether the thumb safety will block the hammer, or whether the hammer will simply over ride the thumb safety. It will be interesting to see.

For your pistol, if it is a series 70, the condition of those sear surfaces are critical to your safety. A series 70 does not have a firing pin block, so if the hammer, for whatever reason falls and hits the firing pin, any primer in the way will ignite. I am aware of incidents where the sear broke, and the 1911 being held fired all the five rounds in the magazine. This was in a 2700 Bullseye Pistol Match. On the load command, the match director (who was a competitor) dropped the slide for the timed or rapid fire stage. And the sear broke. All five rounds fired, and Frank had a bullet hole in the brim of his cap! Imagine where a sixth round would have gone.

I really don't know if your hammer is falling to the half cock or not. I am sure you would hear a click if that happened. So, if your hammer is falling to the half cock by pressing on it, or by pressing the trigger, you need a new sear and hammer. Preferably fitted. The half cock usually engages the sear, but not always. Shoot a series 70 1911 enough to wear out the sear, and you will be surprised when it starts doubling.

 

[drband]

The cylinder&slide article is the best description of the check. Follow it exactly to be sure what’s going on. You should be able to see or feel hammer movement if you fail the check.

One note. There is something called “Disconnector click” that might be what you hear. I had to get a new disconnector on one 1911 to remedy that issue. It’s not a safety concern, but it bothered me.

here’s a discussion if it interests you: https://www.1911forum.com/threads/disconnector-click.69115/

 

[Truerilley]

I really don't trust the thumb safety as all it is, is a sear blocking safety.

Great video at the URL

View attachment 1136871


Now I do have Walt Kuleck's book "The M1911 Complete Owner's Guide" and within he claims a hammer blocking function for the thumb safety. Maybe the thumb safety has been modified since 1911, but originally, the thumb safety was on the pistol only so the pistol could be safe with one hand. It was not a permanent safety, the discussion revealed in Clawson's book with MG Croizer clearly shows, it was a temporary safety. Temporary till the Cavalry Trooper could lower the hammer and put the pistol in the flap holster.

I love Kuleck's book, but he is a cocked and locked fan boy, and those guys will find things that are not really there. So, I will go with @1911Tuner assessment that the hammer will wipe off the safety if the sear fails. The next time I take all my 1911 trigger parts out, I will try to assemble so I can hold the hammer back, with the thumb safety on. Maybe not installing the sear will allow me to test whether the thumb safety will block the hammer, or whether the hammer will simply over ride the thumb safety. It will be interesting to see.

For your pistol, if it is a series 70, the condition of those sear surfaces are critical to your safety. A series 70 does not have a firing pin block, so if the hammer, for whatever reason falls and hits the firing pin, any primer in the way will ignite. I am aware of incidents where the sear broke, and the 1911 being held fired all the five rounds in the magazine. This was in a 2700 Bullseye Pistol Match. On the load command, the match director (who was a competitor) dropped the slide for the timed or rapid fire stage. And the sear broke. All five rounds fired, and Frank had a bullet hole in the brim of his cap! Imagine where a sixth round would have gone.

I really don't know if your hammer is falling to the half cock or not. I am sure you would hear a click if that happened. So, if your hammer is falling to the half cock by pressing on it, or by pressing the trigger, you need a new sear and hammer. Preferably fitted. The half cock usually engages the sear, but not always. Shoot a series 70 1911 enough to wear out the sear, and you will be surprised when it starts doubling.

I can definitely say my hammer is not falling. Half cock or otherwise. The hammer remains fully cocked back. What I'm saying is,with it fully cocked back. I slightly press it further back and hear a slight click.

 

[Truerilley]

But from what I'm gathering, it appears a trip to my local gunsmith is in my near future this week. So may I ask one last thing? Since my 1911 passes all the other safety checks. Including the grip safety click check. Are there any other possible causes for the click? Or should I just plan on paying for a new thumb safety to be installed? Just wanting to learn and cover all my bases. Thank you to all that have helped. This knowledge is invaluable!!!

 

[edwardware]

. . . local gunsmith

Perhaps you live in the promised land of competent gunschmidts. . . but do you have any reason to suspect your local guy of any competence whatsoever? There's no one in Upstate SC I would permit to hold a file anywhere near a 1911 of mine.

Buy Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual, take your time, and figure it out yourself.

 

[entropy]

I agree with Edward Ware, find a good 1911 gunsmith. This isn't as easy as it was 40 years ago. Kuhnhausen's book is an excellent resource. My understanding of the 1911 increased exponentially over the Armorer training I had in the Army.

 

[Truerilley]

Perhaps you live in the promised land of competent gunschmidts. . . but do you have any reason to suspect your local guy of any competence whatsoever? There's no one in Upstate SC I would permit to hold a file anywhere near a 1911 of mine.

Buy Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual, take your time, and figure it out yourself.

Please ignore my last message lol. I just now saw this reply. I will take your advice and buy the book. Time for some good old fashioned book learning. Thank you sir.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

Hold on now, just how important is this issue? Is anyone suggesting the thumb safety will fail and fire the cocked and locked gun? It seems to me (and I have a Series 70 that fails the test) that if I holster the pistol while not touching the trigger after applying the safety, I'm as safe as if it had passed the test.

 

[drband]

Hold on now, just how important is this issue? Is anyone suggesting the thumb safety will fail and fire the cocked and locked gun? It seems to me (and I have a Series 70 that fails the test) that if I holster the pistol while not touching the trigger after applying the safety, I'm as safe as if it had passed the test.

My understanding is, however unlikely, if the sear slips off the hammer hooks for whatever reason, the thumb safety can’t be relied on to keep the gun from firing. The thumb safety is supposed to lock the sear in place with no movement. If the click test fails, there is sear movement, if small. If the test is failed, a new thumb safety is in order is what I understand.

(I am open to being corrected. )

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I will wait for X-prt opinion, but my (mis?)understanding is that the 1911 thumb safety only blocks the trigger. Yes if the sear slips off, the gun will fire; and the reason this test is relevant is that a maladjusted safety may not sufficiently block trigger movement. Then if the trigger on such a gun is pulled (safety engaged) the sear may move slightly towards complete disengagement.

 

[drband]

And now we wait…

 

[sgt127]

What you are describing. Is the safety stud that presses against the sear was slightly fitted loose. Or. Has worn. Or (much less likely) the contact point on the sear has worn.

when you engage the safety, the little tab on the back presses against the sear. Holding it in place. It you then press the trigger. The sear should not move. At all. And pulling the hammer back, will not make a sound. As has been discussed above, that tiny click you hear means the sear was allowed to travel, just a tiny bit, before the stud on the safety stopped its movement. And, it’s being held in that spot by friction between the edge of the sear and the hammer hooks. Pulling the hammer back release the tension and, the click is the sear snapping back to fully seated on the hammer hooks.

This is not optimal. But, honestly, not catastrophic because of it slips off the hammer hooks, the design “should” allow the sear to arrest forward movement in the safety notch of the hammer.

Get it fixed. A new thumb safety should solve the problem. Have a clean and fresh file. Keep flats, dead flat. And test fit it after every file stroke as you get close.

I actually prefer to “feel” the safety shelf wedge behind the sear just a tiny bit. Then there’s a little Extra as the parts wear in.

 

[Skylerbone]

I will wait for X-prt opinion, but my (mis?)understanding is that the 1911 thumb safety only blocks the trigger. Yes if the sear slips off, the gun will fire; and the reason this test is relevant is that a maladjusted safety may not sufficiently block trigger movement. Then if the trigger on such a gun is pulled (safety engaged) the sear may move slightly towards complete disengagement.

The grip safety blocks the trigger. The thumb safety blocks the sear.

Red grease seen is the left sear leg.


Now zoom in on the TS and note the portion of the lobe removed Is what allows the sear legs to rotate into that void which does not happen when the TS is engaged (lobe rotates up leaving the round, unrelieved portion of the lobe blocking sear rotation.


Here I have removed the TS and inserted it partially to display its natural “off” position.


In the TS “off” position you can see the edge which must be fitted to allow the TS to rotate into its “on” position. Fitting removes material from the lobe to allow rotation, effectively blocking the sear from rotation.


With the TS in its “on” position.


Now the importance of the test: if too much wear/improper fitting is present then the sear nose is inching away from engagement with the hammer hooks. We now have, for lack of a better term that comes to mind, tolerance. Stack that against sear nose wear or damage or even their somewhat delicate nature (MIM anyone?) and we now have tolerance stack.

The simplest point to get across to any firearms user is that failing the test means something is wrong and should be addressed because it gun, it dangerous.

 

[drband]

The grip safety blocks the trigger. The thumb safety blocks the sear.

Red grease seen is the left sear leg.
View attachment 1137219

Now zoom in on the TS and note the portion of the lobe removed Is what allows the sear legs to rotate into that void which does not happen when the TS is engaged (lobe rotates up leaving the round, unrelieved portion of the lobe blocking sear rotation.
View attachment 1137220

Here I have removed the TS and inserted it partially to display its natural “off” position.
View attachment 1137221

In the TS “off” position you can see the edge which must be fitted to allow the TS to rotate into its “on” position. Fitting removes material from the lobe to allow rotation, effectively blocking the sear from rotation.
View attachment 1137226

With the TS in its “on” position.
View attachment 1137227

Now the importance of the test: if too much wear/improper fitting is present then the sear nose is inching away from engagement with the hammer hooks. We now have, for lack of a better term that comes to mind, tolerance. Stack that against sear nose wear or damage or even their somewhat delicate nature (MIM anyone?) and we now have tolerance stack.

The simplest point to get across to any firearms user is that failing the test means something is wrong and should be addressed because it gun, it dangerous.

Thanks for the detailed explanation with pictures.

 

[sgt127]

The grip safety blocks the trigger. The thumb safety blocks the sear.

Well done.

 

[Truerilley]

I am in constant awe of how welcoming and freely everyone here shares their knowledge. This has been and continues to be an amazing journey of learning. Im eternally grateful to all who are contributing. I am taking my 1911 to the smith in a few hours. Will post updates soon. However I am also going to buy an older project 1911 to begin more hands on learning as others have so rightfully suggested. I look forward to hearing more from all of you wonderful people.

 

[Skylerbone]

Hold on now, just how important is this issue? Is anyone suggesting the thumb safety will fail and fire the cocked and locked gun? It seems to me (and I have a Series 70 that fails the test) that if I holster the pistol while not touching the trigger after applying the safety, I'm as safe as if it had passed the test.

Maybe, maybe not. While holstering, your hand is holding…which deactivates the…which leaves only the…which has failed the test. Perhaps you favor a thumb break style holster and the leather with snap attached finds its way into the trigger guard. Then what good was setting the quasi-safety to begin with? As safe as a pistol that passes, no. Likely to be a problem? Ask Murphy, he wrote the law.

Now the more likely scenario happens when the sear nose develops wear down the road or sustains damage. That’s when, as described by @Slamfire, you see unintentional double taps or magazines getting emptied. Yes there are redundancies built in but handling the pistol itself removed at least one.

Fitting a new thumb safety is boringly simple but requires absolute attention to detail. A little magnification and good lighting are invaluable.

Now @Col. Harrumph to your other post regarding the TS being a hammer block…I answered with caution and stepped round you. But…given correct geometry of the hammer, the TS should arrest the fall of the hammer enough as it wipes the TS to “off” to prevent a hard enough strike of the firing pin to ignite a primer. In my mind there is not significant trust in labeling it a true hammer block safety because firing pin contact is made. Consider it the equivalent of decocking the hammer with a live round chambered. A risk not worth taking.

 

[Truerilley]

Went to the smith yesterday, it was as most have stayed. No surprise given the awesome expertise here. The sear was worn very slightly. However the biggest issue was the disconnect. Parts are being ordered today. I also decided to order a new spring set. The smith is a friend of mine so I will be being shown the entire process by him. Getting some hands on experience from him. Thank you to all that took the time to help. Only thing I'm sad about is not having her for around two weeks lol.

 

[Truerilley]

Stated*

 

[Skylerbone]

Did this to my disco rail to reduce wear and tear during cycling. A bit of patience with a file. Always proceed with caution and know the consequences if you goof.