2 dead students, police refused assistance

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you might as well be talking to an answering machine if you call 911.
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Lot of people complain about this after either listening to a 911 call, or after/during making a 911 call themselves. What they don't realize is that the dispatch is happening in the background while they are still talking.

911, what is the location of your emergeny?
"Umm, Orchard and Washington."
*this step is skipped if you are calling from a land-line, cause they already know where you are*
What is the emergency
"Dude just got hit by a car!"
*at this point the paramedics and police are being dispatched*
Is he in the road? Is he bleeding? Where did the car go? What is your name? What is your address? etc.etc.etc.
"OMG, stop asking me questions and send an ambulance and the cops!"
 
Still amazes me how people still believe 911 is something more than the governments answer to dial-a-prayer.

Foolish, foolish people. Unfortunatly they cannot learn from their mistake as they are dead................
 
Even if Barwick had sought a protective order against Allred, the forms must be filed at the Seminole County Courthouse, then sent to a judge and finally the Sheriff's Office.

Court officials said the process could take a day or two.
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When seconds count, the police are only days away.
 
When I called 911 because a woman in the apartment above me was screaming there were two cop cars within five minutes. Maybe it
helped I was living three blocks from the Justice Center. But 911
response has been rather quick here.
 
So gov't forbids some law-abiding people from having tools of self defence. And they're also not eligible to receive protection from those who they pay to police the laws. What the hell happened that things got to this point??? It's Bizarro world.

It's up to the woman to defend herself.
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THEN WHY DON'T THEY ****ING SAY SO WHEN SHE ASKS THEM FOR HELP AND ADVICE!!!??? I'm not mad at you, but them.


The bottom line and many members here claim to live by it, is that you are responsible for your own safety. I find it rather hypocritical that the same people who derisively refer to the general public as sheeple are now outraged that the police didn't arrest someone before he committed a crime as a preventative measure .
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Well they could arrest him for theft, or hacking, or threatening to kill people...

Not exactly that though. Outraged that they didn't fulfill their part of the social contract. Jean-Jaques Rousseau stuff, people give freedoms to the gov't in exchange for benefits. When the gov't started TAKING freedoms away without consultation it was more of a social black-mail than a contract, and now we see that they don't even give anything in exchange!

"We're going to take your freedoms, and give you nothing in exchange, no wait we're going to take your money too. Those guys disarming you won't work for free."


Fear of litigation has taken common sense out of many things in life.
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Bureaucracy never needed common sense to start with. People are dead, it's very serious, it's not just a funny movie where Buttle and Tuttle are confused. The girl's ONLY OPTION was to defend herself, but the police were not willing, afraid, to say that. This is absurdity.
 
Hello all,
Unfortunatly this is my first post on this honorable forum.. but I feel compelled to write because this happened about a mile from where I live in a quiet suburb of Orlando Florida..

After the smoke cleared and the newspapers and TV had a field day .. It all comes down to the fact that the Agency would be dammed if the they took action against the perp. " Oh my god my civil liberties are being threatened" "unlawful detention.". all the way to false arrest..
to advising the complaintents of what they need to do in according to the current law..
It is not up to the LEO to interpet the law, just uphold it.. and ensure that it is carried out.. Either way this one turned out bad.. very bad.. The suspect had bought the gun legally with I believe the manditory three day waitng period..
The Mother of the girl who was killed stated the "The police did the best they could and should not be blamed"
Someone locally said it would be like calling the fire department and asking to have your house doused with water because you SMELL smoke.. but the department refused because the did not SEE any fire or smoke..and told you to call immediatly if you see flames.. and see smoke.. then having your house burn down three hours later.. all did the best they could under the circumstances..

Sad very sad..
 
Still amazes me how people still believe 911 is something more than the governments answer to dial-a-prayer.
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I would tend to agree that calling 911 for help when you are being attacked is not likely to save your a$$. People should be taught not to call 911 to report crimes though. A report of a crime is not an emergency, and should not be treated that way. A crime in progress could be an emergency.

But if your house is on fire, or you are bleeding to death, its a good number to remember.
 
Hello all,
Unfortunatly this is my first post on this honorable forum.. but I feel compelled to write because this happened about a mile from where I live in a quiet suburb of Orlando Florida..

After the smoke cleared and the newspapers and TV had a field day .. It all comes down to the fact that the Agency would be dammed if the they took action against the perp. " Oh my god my civil liberties are being threatened" "unlawful detention.". all the way to false arrest..
to advising the complaintents of what they need to do in according to the current law..
It is not up to the LEO to interpet the law, just uphold it.. and ensure that it is carried out.. Either way this one turned out bad.. very bad.. The suspect had bought the gun legally with I believe the manditory three day waitng period..
The Mother of the girl who was killed stated the "The police did the best they could and should not be blamed"
Someone locally said it would be like calling the fire department and asking to have your house doused with water because you SMELL smoke.. but the department refused because the did not SEE any fire or smoke..and told you to call immediatly if you see flames.. and see smoke.. then having your house burn down three hours later.. all did the best they could under the circumstances..

Sad very sad..
 
THEN WHY DON'T THEY ****ING SAY SO WHEN SHE ASKS THEM FOR HELP AND ADVICE!!!???
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It's also not up to them to keep her safe, or to give her complete advice. They owe no duty to tell her or anybody else how best to protect herself.

LEO's are there to enforce laws as instructed by whatever agency they serve. They protect and serve GOVERNMENT, not you or me. This isn't LEO bashing, it's stark reality. The great lie is that serving the needs of government is the same as serving the community or individuals. The interests of the government may lie in keeping all LEO's out of a community and letting it burn in a riot, for example. That's a reasonable choice if your resources are limited. Or they may lie in telling you to take a hike if you're complaining about an ex boyfriend sending threats.
 
So. The perp made threats to kill the victim, said he'd just bought a gun (to kill him), was a former boyfriend to one of the victims (domestic violence?). While I am no big fan of the Lautenberg Amendment, why couldn't someone connect the dots and use the law to do what we all hate...take the guy's gun away for starters. In view of the victims "choosing" to be disarmed it would have made for a more level playing field. Moral: gun laws don't always work.
 
Regional Differences

In 1998 & 1999 we had a property where the purchase agreement had been breached and (by contract) it reverted to "rental" property.

They don't tell you as you're signing the contract that "reverting to rental" actually favors the delinquent resident/tenant, and that it will take you at least 90 days -- if all the formalities are observed -- to evict the deadbeats.

There we stood, with a sheriff's deputy, who kept us at least 100 feet away (to avoid triggering a "harassment" complaint) watching them walk out with the appliances and other stuff not bolted down.

The deadbeats were not new to this. They knew the drill. They were completely nonchalant.

However, they told us over the phone, when we demanded payment, that if we pursued this we could get hurt.

When the deputy heard this, he said, "Look, I can't let you get close to them or follow them; that would be harassment. But it sounds like they threatened you. Do you have a gun? No? You need to get one. If they come to you, and if they enter your home to do you harm, if you fear for your life, then you'll have to protect yourself. Most people are so scared they empty the gun. You understand what I'm saying? You don't go to them, but you defend yourself. I can't do anything for you personally, 'cuz my hands are tied, but you can defend yourself."

In the end, we elected to let it go, and just absorb the financial hit.

I had no training or experience with a gun (at least not for 20 years since .mil), nor did my wife, but in that moment she was entirely in favor of getting a pistol for HD. Actually, she was entirely in favor of . . . uhm . . . proactive, preemptive HD.

The deputy, however, knew the score and gave us the advice we needed. It was up to us to act on that advice.

The police/troopers/sheriff's dept. where you live will have their own bias regarding self defense. In that place and time, ours was all for having us take care of ourselves.

I didn't appreciate how important that was at the time. Things change. Now I do.
 
It's also not up to them to keep her safe, or to give her complete advice. They owe no duty to tell her or anybody else how best to protect herself.
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Is sure as hell is! Once they hinder YOUR ability to defend yourself THEY assume it. The worst thing you can do is say, "Oh well, it was a tough situation, these things happen."

Hold their feet to the fire, DEMAND THEY LIVE UP TO THEIR END OF THE BARGAIN, OR GIVE BACK WHAT THEY TOOK.
 
"Allred would not have been served the order in time and, even if he was, who knows if that would have stopped him?" Wick said. "Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it."
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They got the 1st part right but totally blew it on the 2nd part.

There absolutely was something they could have done about it.

With that restraining order in one hand and a cocked 1911 in the other the outcome would have been very different.

Too bad they fell for the lie that the police exist to make us safe.
 
1. stalking
2. terroristic threats
3. theft (it says the guy tapped into her bank account without her permission)

If nothing else, the theft should have started some wheels rolling. It certainly does sound like the victims should have found someplace else to be for a few days, and armed themselves as well.
 
The dead are 19 and 22. Either could buy a shotgun in Florida with no waiting period and would have had the advantage defending the house.

Someone calls and says they have a gun and are going to kill you, the cops do nothing, so you go home where the psycho knows you live and sit on your hands? It doesn't sound like these two people were diligently taking an interest in their own safety and the very predictable happened.

This sort of story needs to be communicated to young people around the nation. These two kids didn't deserve to die, but they sure didn't do much to prevent their deaths either.
 
As noted by others, the police cannot arrest you until you have committed a crime. Threatening language is a toug one. It's pretty standard in a lot of divorce cases for one of the parties to claim the 'so and so threatened to kill them'. How do the police know this is a credible threat? You have to remember that they don't have all the facts. Hindsight is 20/20.

Futher, the courts have ruled that the police are note required to protect any individual, even in the case of credible threats. Their obligation is to protect society as a whole.

This is exactly why you need to be prepared to defend yourself. They were over 18 and could have obtained a rifle or shotgun. If they felt the threat was real, why did they go home?

It's a tragedy, but blaming the police won't fix it.
 
I've worked similar cases where the complainant and I both knew he was going to get hurt if something wasn't done and soon. Sometimes you can talk to the bad guy and make him see the light, sometimes you can get them into a mental health unit and sometimes you can try to make an arrest. The problem is finding a law that fits, will be backed up at court and will result in meaningful action- like jail and taking away the bad guys weapons. Unfortunately the law doesn't work like it should and the cop is between to two parties trying to keep them from trouble. I don't know what the laws are where this tragedy occurred. I can only say real life isn't like TV. Bad guys don't always back down and an arrest doesn't always solve the problem. That, IMO, is part of the reason the 2nd Amend was written into the Constitution. Sometimes you have no choice but to take your defense into your own hands. Some folks just can't grasp that idea.
 
What about the parents of these kids? Did they teach their children nothing of the real world?

My kids would have had, at the very least, a .22 rifle per kid in the house (not much but it is something) all the way up to whatever the hell they wanted if they one day get as in to guns as I want them to be.
 
1. stalking
2. terroristic threats
3. theft (it says the guy tapped into her bank account without her permission)

If nothing else, the theft should have started some wheels rolling. It certainly does sound like the victims should have found someplace else to be for a few days, and armed themselves as well.
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I see a few flaws in logic here.

There's a bad guy with a gun who has stolen money from a college kid. College kids usually have no money. What little she had was for paying rent... not hiding in a hotel for a week or buying a $200+ shotgun and ammo.

I remember college, and it was not financially possible for me to just go out and get a gun if needed.

The only real defense to this situation is a responsible father who:
1) Taught his daughter at a young age how to handle a firearm
2) Taught his daughter to look for warning signs of a bad relationship
3) Equipped his daughter to defend herself as she leaves for school.

No "sudden shift" by immediately buying a weapon would have resolved this problem in favor of the victims here, IMO.

Survival is a long-term plan, more often than not.
 
Here's this kicker with this whole rant. In the original post "They" are the police. The executive branch. The enforcement branch. In Lucky's response "They" is the legislature. The lawmakers who hinder your ability to defend yourself.

We're the visible result so people keep blaming the cops for the poor job of some legislator a few hundred miles away.

Far too often I see this line getting blurred so yet again I'll give the same advice I give a lot of people.

If you don't like the law, change it.

It's also not up to them to keep her safe, or to give her complete advice. They owe no duty to tell her or anybody else how best to protect herself.

Is sure as hell is! Once they hinder YOUR ability to defend yourself THEY assume it. The worst thing you can do is say, "Oh well, it was a tough situation, these things happen."

Hold their feet to the fire, DEMAND THEY LIVE UP TO THEIR END OF THE BARGAIN, OR GIVE BACK WHAT THEY TOOK.
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Had the victims asked for help and got the same result and then mentioned to the cop the had a gun or two and were willing to use them and the cop then "consficated" the weapons for reasons of "safety" this thread and the anger towards police would be justified.

As it is, these were two unfortunates left unprepared by their families.

Sure the shooter is directly responsible and should fry, but the parents made it easy for the killer by not doing anything to harden their kids.
 
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