Mossberg535
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confused.
What does this mean ?
What does this mean ?
There werent any buckshot in 20 ga before ?
20 gauge or 12 gauge?
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MCgunner
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It's called "advertising hype".
To those who would recommend a 20 ga with bird shot for home defense... are you out of your mind? BIRD. SHOT. It might give them a bad skin rash. (That's a slight exaggeration, but only about as much as the effectiveness of such a round.) A round like that might piss off a badger and won't hurt a turkey. An intruder is somewhat larger and more capable of harm than both.
As much as a .410 would be good with 00 buck or slugs for home defense. That's still a significant load of wallop. If you've ever shot a .30-06, .308, .270 winchester, or similar bolt action, consider that the kick from a 12 ga with 2 3/4 slugs is comparable, albeit less "sharp" (more of a push than the 'punch' of a full sized rifle cartridge). I find it quite manageable (I'm 160lb soaking wet, 6'2").
I just got a 590A, and I almost got the 20 gauge. Why did I not? Simple: ammo availability. 12 gauge is everywhere, and much cheaper.
As much as a .410 would be good with 00 buck or slugs for home defense. That's still a significant load of wallop. If you've ever shot a .30-06, .308, .270 winchester, or similar bolt action, consider that the kick from a 12 ga with 2 3/4 slugs is comparable, albeit less "sharp" (more of a push than the 'punch' of a full sized rifle cartridge). I find it quite manageable (I'm 160lb soaking wet, 6'2").
I just got a 590A, and I almost got the 20 gauge. Why did I not? Simple: ammo availability. 12 gauge is everywhere, and much cheaper.
MCgunner
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Recoil depends on the gun. From my 6.5 lb SxS 12 gauge, a slug's recoil feels about like a .600 nitro express. Well, it's closer to that than a .308! First time I fired it with a slug I was braced over a motorcycle seat for a rest and it was pointing 12 o'clock after the shot. Woke me up, can tell ya that! Is amazingly accurate with 'em, though. The 20 gauge slug from a 5.5 lb SxS is a lot milder, more like a .308. Oh, and I'm 6 feet and 210.
I've actually never fired a 12 gauge slug in either my Winchester auto or my Mossberg pump. I have some 12 gauge slugs around here somewhere, maybe I should try that.
I've actually never fired a 12 gauge slug in either my Winchester auto or my Mossberg pump. I have some 12 gauge slugs around here somewhere, maybe I should try that.
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MCgunner
Member
Where is 12 ga. any cheaper? 20 is the same as 12 here, slugs, dove loads, AAs, buckshot, you name it. Even 3" steel ain't too bad against the price of 12 gauge 3". It is a little higher than 2 3/4" 12 steel which it's equivalent to. Cost is only an issue with .410, 28, 16, and maybe 10 gauge, though 10 is only a couple bucks more than 12 3.5" . I think 10 was running 25 a box last year and 12 3.5" was running about 22.
MCgunner
Member
Pretty much mirrors prices at Academy here. These are the cheapest buckshot loads at Midway. Academy has 20 gauge Remington 3 buck and 12 gauge 00 at about the same pricing.
20 gauge 4.59 a box
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=175614
12 gauge 4.49 a box
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=519537
Wow, a whole dime.
20 gauge 4.59 a box
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=175614
12 gauge 4.49 a box
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=519537
Wow, a whole dime.
JohnBT
Member
"There werent any buckshot in 20 ga before ? "
No, the traditional offering was the aforementioned load of #3 buck. I just looked in my copy of the '67 Shooter's Bible. There's the load of #3 buck.
Now there's a 00 load. So where's the hype?
John
No, the traditional offering was the aforementioned load of #3 buck. I just looked in my copy of the '67 Shooter's Bible. There's the load of #3 buck.
Now there's a 00 load. So where's the hype?
John
MCgunner
Member
The hype is that the 00 Paraklese stuff is the "first effective self defense ammo". Not hardly, 3 buck is plenty effective and has been around forever. Then, there's slugs. It MAY be the first 00 loads, but only mall ninjas think you can't kill a man with anything less. 3 buck at 10 feet, I ain't volunteering to be test dummy. And many a deer has been felled in his tracks by a 20 gauge slug.
snooperman
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JOHN BT, Thanks for the info on 20 ga OO buck ammo
It is an improvement for those who like the 20 ga. I like it too, as I have taken much game in the field and trophies at the skeet range with it. It is a great gun for certain applications. That said, I repeat whAt I believe is true about my experiences with the shotgun and those of other hunters and sportsmen alike, that the 12 ga shotgun is "KING OF THE SHOTGUNS" because of its greater VERSATILITY than the 20 ga. and all the other gauges as well.
It is an improvement for those who like the 20 ga. I like it too, as I have taken much game in the field and trophies at the skeet range with it. It is a great gun for certain applications. That said, I repeat whAt I believe is true about my experiences with the shotgun and those of other hunters and sportsmen alike, that the 12 ga shotgun is "KING OF THE SHOTGUNS" because of its greater VERSATILITY than the 20 ga. and all the other gauges as well.
JohnBT
Member
"3 buck is plenty effective"
At 10 feet and maybe out as far as 25 yards. That's 75 feet and that's not far and that's not considering heavy clothing, cover, etc. Sure, you could always try a quick unload and reload with a slug, but that's an unecessary complication.
There's a reason the deer hunters I know won't use #3 or #4 buck - limited range.
John
At 10 feet and maybe out as far as 25 yards. That's 75 feet and that's not far and that's not considering heavy clothing, cover, etc. Sure, you could always try a quick unload and reload with a slug, but that's an unecessary complication.
There's a reason the deer hunters I know won't use #3 or #4 buck - limited range.
John
earlthegoat2
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An old guy I knew used to always say that a 20 gauge could do anything a 12 gauge could.
You just have to be a better shot.
Start practicing.
You just have to be a better shot.
Start practicing.
freakshow10mm
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That applies to all hunters I know. Buckshot is legal in MI for deer and bear, but I do not know a single hunter who knows another hunter that uses buckshot. Why? Limited range.
About five years ago we were at the ranch to dove hunt and get this place ready for deer season.
Two of the guys walked off down the ranch road to get into some early morning dove hunting and they had not even been gone a minute when i heard two quick shotgun blasts.
They returned right away for the truck.
Turns out the guy doing the shooting had with him on old Ithaca model 37 pump shotgun in 20 gauge.
He shot two feral hogs stone dead that ran across the ranch road right in front of them at a distance of maybe 20 feet with well placed head shots using nothing more than low brass #8 shot.
I was truely impressed with what the 20 gauge can do especially in a home defense scenario.
Anyone who has ever hunted feral hogs knows how tough these animals are.
Two of the guys walked off down the ranch road to get into some early morning dove hunting and they had not even been gone a minute when i heard two quick shotgun blasts.
They returned right away for the truck.
Turns out the guy doing the shooting had with him on old Ithaca model 37 pump shotgun in 20 gauge.
He shot two feral hogs stone dead that ran across the ranch road right in front of them at a distance of maybe 20 feet with well placed head shots using nothing more than low brass #8 shot.
I was truely impressed with what the 20 gauge can do especially in a home defense scenario.
Anyone who has ever hunted feral hogs knows how tough these animals are.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Lol, Caimlais hunts turkey with buckshot and slugs:
MCgunner
Member
I don't use a shotgun for deer hunting. I have rifles and handguns and a bow for that. But, that really doesn't matter to me. 25 yards is way farther than I'm going to be shooting. My whole 2 BR 1000 sq ft home isn't that long. Longest shot I'm likely to get is maybe 15 feet. And, a hit on the torso of a human at that range with 3 buck is going to be deadly. Actually, if I have to leave the bedroom, I'll leave the shotgun and grab my .38 or my .357 Magnum, both loaded in the night stand. I normally sleep with ear plugs cause the wife snores...
...so the .357 is an option to me, speer 140 grain JHPs at just underr 1400 fps from a 3" barrel.Neat story, heeler. I shot a coyote at about 25 yards with a load of 7.5 from a 12 gauge when I was dove hunting once and knocked him down, he got up and ran off. I hit him amidships in the head/thorax area, could see the fur fly.
I'm pretty sure he probably died. The rancher on that lease wanted us to shoot on sight for coyotes. All he cared about is they were killed somehow. I probably coulda got him closer in retrospect. He was coming right at me and I was leaning against a tree all camoed out. I let him get that close and wheeled around shooting around the tree. I didn't really want a coyote at 15 feet at the time. LOLHe probably did die McGunner.
Another thing to consider and this was obviously the case when my hunting friend killed those hogs is the fact that at 10-20 feet,which in a home defense situation is about right and possibly even less,one has to understand that the load coming out of that shotgun barrel at those short distances has not even cleared the wad so even with low base bird shot the damage is going to most likely be horrendous and quite fatal.
Edit to add...I have a Mossberg 12 gauge in the house hot to go(I live alone) loaded with high brass number 6 shot.
Another thing to consider and this was obviously the case when my hunting friend killed those hogs is the fact that at 10-20 feet,which in a home defense situation is about right and possibly even less,one has to understand that the load coming out of that shotgun barrel at those short distances has not even cleared the wad so even with low base bird shot the damage is going to most likely be horrendous and quite fatal.
Edit to add...I have a Mossberg 12 gauge in the house hot to go(I live alone) loaded with high brass number 6 shot.
MCgunner
Member
Quite so. I just figure 3 buck will do the job anyway and it won't go through wood and walls as well as 00. I'm quite sure at 15 feet it's going to fully penetrate anyone I'm shooting with it. I've heard Glasier ammo wounding likened to a "contact wound" from a shotgun. It can't be fun to get shot from 15 feet from any shotgun with ANY load. Just optimize to your needs, I reckon. If you're shooting people at 40 yards, you probably need 00 or a slug.
freakshow10mm
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Or a rifle.
Mossberg535
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Im definitely not going to argue that a 20 isnt adequate for HD....I carry a 357 snubbie and I trust it and Im positive that a 20 gauge is going to outkill a bad guy compared to it.
My ONLY point in this discussion is simply to say that if a person is looking for ONE shotgun, ONE gauge then the 12 is the way to go if one is looking for the most they can get out of that ONE shotgun/gauge.
Ive used a 410 many times and I loved it. Love my 20 and my 16 gauges as well.
But the 12 simply cannot be beat at THIS point in time for what is available both in gun and ammo selection.
My ONLY point in this discussion is simply to say that if a person is looking for ONE shotgun, ONE gauge then the 12 is the way to go if one is looking for the most they can get out of that ONE shotgun/gauge.
Ive used a 410 many times and I loved it. Love my 20 and my 16 gauges as well.
But the 12 simply cannot be beat at THIS point in time for what is available both in gun and ammo selection.
snooperman
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John BT "the #3 buck is plenty effective for home defense
No arguments from me about that. In fact within the confines of a home , the general consensus is that more hits with the smaller size buckshot( #3 and #4) is preferable to OO buckshot. WHY? OO buck has too much penetration at close quarter distances, 18-22 inches, where as the smaller pellets will give you about 10-15 inches in penetration. They actually are better for the home owner, whether it is 12 ga or 20 ga is not significant at all. Law enforcement and the Military have much different needs that precludes the use of larger pellets that will enhance penetration at longer distances.
No arguments from me about that. In fact within the confines of a home , the general consensus is that more hits with the smaller size buckshot( #3 and #4) is preferable to OO buckshot. WHY? OO buck has too much penetration at close quarter distances, 18-22 inches, where as the smaller pellets will give you about 10-15 inches in penetration. They actually are better for the home owner, whether it is 12 ga or 20 ga is not significant at all. Law enforcement and the Military have much different needs that precludes the use of larger pellets that will enhance penetration at longer distances.
Mossberg535
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One other thing I like about the 12 is the payload.
It was already enough to put enough lead out there to fill the gaps at longer ranges, but the added 3.5" shell gives more than enough at longer ranges, especially if your using larger shot #4 or smaller and still want to get a lot of coverage.
With 3 different shell size choices, carrying varied payloads, it seems that there are more options open for a person who hunts either like I do, close range (<25yds), or someone who likes those 70 yard shots.
It was already enough to put enough lead out there to fill the gaps at longer ranges, but the added 3.5" shell gives more than enough at longer ranges, especially if your using larger shot #4 or smaller and still want to get a lot of coverage.
With 3 different shell size choices, carrying varied payloads, it seems that there are more options open for a person who hunts either like I do, close range (<25yds), or someone who likes those 70 yard shots.
snooperman
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12 gauge history
The 12 ga has withstood the test of time and has evolved into the greatest shotgun of all time . How is that so you may ask? During the mid to late 1700's the 72 caliber musket was used extensively by the colonist here in America with great effect. The frontiersman could use Buck, ball and shot, or a combination thereof, to take a wide variety of game with this flintlock smoothbore. There were other gauges available too, such as the mighty 4, 8, and 10 ga. But the one that gave him the best possible effects for defense and hunting was the 72 caliber(12 ga) musket. As time went on through the percussion era of the early 1800,s the double SXS percussion guns made their headway. However, the 12 ga still endured because of its inherent ability to hold the variety of shot and buck, in ratio to the powder charge as to make it more effective than the other gauges, namely. 4,8,10. So, we have an evolutionary process brought on by experimentation to bring us to where we are today with the greatest variety of 12 gauge shotguns in the form of single barrel trap guns, beautiful double barrel guns, over unders, semiautos and the slide action guns that are so prevalent with their many choke tubes. It is befitting indeed to give homage to the 12 guage shotgun as "THE KING OF SHOTGUNS". It truly has earned it.
The 12 ga has withstood the test of time and has evolved into the greatest shotgun of all time . How is that so you may ask? During the mid to late 1700's the 72 caliber musket was used extensively by the colonist here in America with great effect. The frontiersman could use Buck, ball and shot, or a combination thereof, to take a wide variety of game with this flintlock smoothbore. There were other gauges available too, such as the mighty 4, 8, and 10 ga. But the one that gave him the best possible effects for defense and hunting was the 72 caliber(12 ga) musket. As time went on through the percussion era of the early 1800,s the double SXS percussion guns made their headway. However, the 12 ga still endured because of its inherent ability to hold the variety of shot and buck, in ratio to the powder charge as to make it more effective than the other gauges, namely. 4,8,10. So, we have an evolutionary process brought on by experimentation to bring us to where we are today with the greatest variety of 12 gauge shotguns in the form of single barrel trap guns, beautiful double barrel guns, over unders, semiautos and the slide action guns that are so prevalent with their many choke tubes. It is befitting indeed to give homage to the 12 guage shotgun as "THE KING OF SHOTGUNS". It truly has earned it.
Leaky Waders
Member
a 20 will be fine, but I'd choose a 12 if you only had one gun...
Don't think so much of is this gauge good enough? Because, it's not really the gauge, it's the quantity of shot that you're shooting from the gun that matters.
e.g. 3/4 oz shot - regardless of pellet size at 1300 fps is the same regardless if it comes from a 12,20,16,28 etc. (p=mv regardless of the source.)
Gauges come into play to let the shooter have more variety in loadings.
In other words, if you had a 28 gauge but wanted to shoot a 1 3/4 oz load then you'd have a hard time cramming that many pellets into a hull. So, you'd move up in hull size to a 12 gauge. That is why most people lean towards a 12 gauge - variety of factory loadings.
"Kick" is determined by the weight of the gun + fit of the gun + velocity/payload of the hull.
So, comparing a similarly fitting 7 lbs 20 gauge shooting a 1 oz load vs an 8 lbs 12 gauge shooting a 1 oz load, the 20 gauge will kick more simply due to the weight of the gun.
Either will serve you well, a 12 gauge would be easier to resale in a hd version imho.
Don't think so much of is this gauge good enough? Because, it's not really the gauge, it's the quantity of shot that you're shooting from the gun that matters.
e.g. 3/4 oz shot - regardless of pellet size at 1300 fps is the same regardless if it comes from a 12,20,16,28 etc. (p=mv regardless of the source.)
Gauges come into play to let the shooter have more variety in loadings.
In other words, if you had a 28 gauge but wanted to shoot a 1 3/4 oz load then you'd have a hard time cramming that many pellets into a hull. So, you'd move up in hull size to a 12 gauge. That is why most people lean towards a 12 gauge - variety of factory loadings.
"Kick" is determined by the weight of the gun + fit of the gun + velocity/payload of the hull.
So, comparing a similarly fitting 7 lbs 20 gauge shooting a 1 oz load vs an 8 lbs 12 gauge shooting a 1 oz load, the 20 gauge will kick more simply due to the weight of the gun.
Either will serve you well, a 12 gauge would be easier to resale in a hd version imho.
JohnBT
Member
Everybody knows that the 28 ga. in the king. So there. It's not about quantity, it's about quality.
John
It's not about quantity, it's about quality.John
MCgunner
Member
I still haven't figured that out, yet, but may someday. I'm a little bit of a slow learner.
Hell, I've never even FIRED a 28. I'd like to do some clays or something with one someday just to see. I know there are some fairly affordable 28s around now days, imports.Does anyone make a 24 or a 32 gauge? I can get ammo.
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