20 gauge or 12 gauge?

[GLOOB]

Gee I don't remember seeing you there that night. It was one animal that got shot 3 times with a 20 ga. and kept on trotting around. It was a rabid fox btw. One blast from a 12 ga. stopped it dead in it's tracks. One of the shots from the 20 ga. was from point blank range (about 2 feet). The fox was right in front of my sliding glass door so I slid the door open just enough to stick the barrel out and blasted the varmit right in the rear quarters. It didn't even flinch. Another shot was from about 10 feet straight down from my balcony and the other was from about 25 yards.

So between your second and third shot, the fox ran 25 yards. Then after 3 shots of 20 gauge, it is still "trotting around," just fine. But somehow you were able to have enough time to make the decision to put down a loaded shotgun, go back inside, get and load your 12 gauge, then go back out and finally "stop it dead in it's tracks?" Are you sure it wasn't already dead on it's feet when you gave it a coup de grace? Yeah, yeah. You were there, so you know. I just wish you could tell it better.

 

[MCgunner]

I read somewhere where guys have drilled out their wood stocks a bit and put in a little lead to add some weight to help with recoil. Sounds reasonable, though I personally like the lighter weight and a good recoil pad instead. Course, Im not what I once was physically...and I whine a lot

Much better to add weight somehow under the fore stock than in the butt. I wouldn't want it too stock heavy, mess up the balance of the gun which is important.

The 16 dying seems really odd to me because when I was young thats all I ever heard about as far as waterfowl hunters. One would think that the 16 would have had a pretty good selection of steel at some point.
I wonder if it was consumer buying or manufacturers steering towards the 12 and 20 that caused the 16 to lose ground ?
I mean, I based my decision on variety and availability and cost of ammo. If the ammo makers pump out tons of one shell or another people like me will run with the rest of the lemmings

That's probably a regional deal. 16 never was that popular for ducks and geese down here, always the 12, forever the 12. When lead shot was legal, there were a lot of 20s in the marsh. 2 3/4" 5 shot high brass 20s (used to be marked "magnum") was killer on ducks, knock 'em down as good as the 12. I never heard of 3" 20s until steel got mandated. I'm not sure, though, when 3" 20 came out, if it was a result of steel or not. But, I went on to 12s after I was in college and am only now using the 20 on waterfowl occasionally just for fun and old times. It really is a good choice during teal season, though. Little farts come flying in low and fast just after shooting time before good light, the 20 can get on 'em fast, faster than my Mossberg or Winchester 12s.

Another thing I've understood now that I'm older, full choke isn't necessary even on ducks over deeks. I shoot a I/C (patterns as would modified lead) in my 12s when duck hunting. It gives you up to 40 yards on high big ducks, but a more open pattern for those teal that are low and fast. Back in the day, hell, people shot full choke on everything, even doves. LOL. A quail hunter might open up to modified. I think hunters are a little better schooled now days on choke. Tighter ain't necessarily better, depending on the game sought.

My old double 12 is a little under 7 lbs, about 6.5. It'd be a good dove gun still, but the thing is fixed mod/full choked and I prefer I/C-Mod now days. I used to miss a lot of birds with that full choke. LOL Poor old thing don't get shot too often anymore.

 

[GRIZ22]

20 gauge may not be as effective as I need it to be in a self defense situation.

A BG hit COM with a load of buckshot from a 20 gauge or a 20 gauge slug will swear they were hit with a 12 gauge. Go with the 20 if that's what you can use effectively.

 

[JohnBT]

It's easy to order 16 ga. steel. Here are a few places.

www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/template...5138a&type=product&cmCat=cchart_nontox_shells

www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=73737

www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=73735

www.cheaperthandirt.com/56296-5.html

 

[JohnBT]

"Back in the day, hell, people shot full choke on everything, even doves."

Back when I was a kid, the '50s and into the '60s, there were only paper shells with felt wads and the patterns opened up in a real hurry. The introduction of the modern plastic wad cup changed all that.

The reason 80% or 90% of those old guns seem to be full choke is because that's what worked with the ammo of that period.

The hunters of my father's and my grandfather's generations weren't stupid, they used what worked. Add in soft lead and no plastic wad cup to keep them from rubbing flat spots against the barrel and you get a horrendous number of fliers that were useless. It was hard to hold a good pattern together.

John

 

[MCgunner]

Back when I was a kid, the '50s and into the '60s, there were only paper shells with felt wads and the patterns opened up in a real hurry. The introduction of the modern plastic wad cup changed all that.

Good point. I started wing shooting about 1961. I remember using paper hulls, but plastic had already been invented by then, or was just getting invented, and took over quick once out. The main thing I knew of 'em was they didn't swell up if you got 'em damp. LOL Wads were being experimented with and there was much advertizing hype. Remember "Wanda" hard plastic ammo? I still have a 20 gauge wanda round around here somewhere, pretty see through yellow, can see the inside works, and a huge plastic cap over the top to mess up the shot string. LOL

Guns like my old SxS came out choked most often mod/full and full choked guns were still common into the 70s when choke tubes became the way of the shotgun world. Apparently, the understanding of choke lagged a bit behind the ammo technology, but corrected itself. I never actually thought of patterning a load until well into the 70s. when I read about it. Now, I don't hunt with a new gun or load until it's patterned. Times change.

 

[Tim the student]

I really hope no one is taking any offense at my posts or anything.

I seriously doubt that.

Its just that manufacturers are really putting a lot of effort into the 12 for whatever reason, which Im betting is why the military and police forces choose the 12.

I seriously doubt that too. I don't think that manufacturers are why the military uses the 12. They have used 12's for some time now - it is not a recent thing by any means. (Unless I misunderstood the word "are" - as in present tense and you meant "were" - as in past tense.)

 

[Mossberg535]

I seriously doubt that too. I don't think that manufacturers are why the military uses the 12. They have used 12's for some time now - it is not a recent thing by any means. (Unless I misunderstood the word "are" - as in present tense and you meant "were" - as in past tense.)

One thing is certain, the 12 is chosen for a reason. I doubt that its because there is lack of support, ammo, variety and versatility of the gauge

 

[Mossberg535]

More exotic ammo for the 12 gauge;
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catal...e-thrower-ammo/cName/12-gauge-specialtyexotic

 

[Prophet]

Might I add to the confusion by asking; which would be more preferable, 12 large wound tracks or 18 smaller wound tracks? Not that it is going to matter too awful much at HD distances.

My family keeps a Realtree Mossberg 20ga loaded with 20pellet buckshot, fwiw. We keep birdshot and a slug or two stored nearby in case the situation ever arose that we would need it.

 

[Mossberg535]

Might I add to the confusion by asking; which would be more preferable, 12 large wound tracks or 18 smaller wound tracks?

I guess it wouldnt matter much as long as the target is hit.
More pellets = more chances for a critical hit (vital organ, artery, etc), however.

I keep my bedside 12 gauge filled with 15 pellet 00 buck magnums. No reason that shouldnt be able to stop even largest of hopped up intruders .

 

[earlthegoat2]

With equal hits, I would wager equal stopping power.

 

[snooperman]

12 ga shotguns are king for many reasons

Go in any gunshop and count the number of 12 gauges there are on the racks. I would wager a bet that the vast majority of them are 12 ga.Probably approaching 85 percent or more. Why? Simple, it is king due to its versatility .Manufacturers know it and so does the vast majority of sportsmen. Next time you go to buy shotgun ammo look at the many shelves are filled with 12 ga ammo and then check how many you find for 20 ga or 16 ga.

 

[freakshow10mm]

More doesn't always mean better.

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, well, I wasn't the most popular in my class, but I was the smartest.

 

[shootistpd27]

I have a 20ga double barrel and recently I had the time to shoot it. The bird shot left me afraid that it would not penetrate the guy however I bought slugs for it and when I shot them, I was extremely impressed. I use slugs for home defense and for hunting. My house is built in a way that I dont have that much to worry about in the area of collateral damage for I only have one child and she sleeps with me and her mother up stairs so most likely I will be shooting towards the front door which is no where close to my family. I also have the Judge by the bed so I dont have to worry about finding the 20. I think they are both good guns but I do think that using bird shot for a b.g., it would be better to use the 12.

 

[snooperman]

Ammo selection

I have 3 12ga shotguns, and 2 20 gauges too. But if I could only have one to do all my shooting with, the 12 wins because of its versatility due to ammo selection. I can do it all with one gun. That said, we all know that the 20 is king on the skeet range and that it is faster in handling when hunting certain game in the field. I won't contest that, And do not think , anyone in this discussion is. YOU CAN DO MORE WITH THE 12 THAN YOU CAN WITH THE 20. There isn't enough in ammo selection for you to do more with the 20 or even come close to the 12 in versatility.

 

[MCgunner]

3 buck in 20 gauge, 20 pellets per shot, remington loads 'em and Academy sells 'em. They're all you need for in home self defense. Slugs, well, they'll work. I mean, that's like hittin' the guy with a 54 caliber Minie ball and lord knows minie balls have killed a lot of people, elk, brown bear, whatever. There are graveyards full of 'em in any civil war cemetery.

Well, not a fair comparison, I guess, what with the minie's sectional density advantage, but at home defense ranges, probably not far off.

 

[MCgunner]

YOU CAN DO MORE WITH THE 12 THAN YOU CAN WITH THE 20.

OMG, there you go shouting again. ROFLMAO!

J/K due to above posts up the page a bit.

And I don't contest the 12's variety of loads, just that I don't wanna be confined to using a 12 as my only gun for any and all game. Golfers (I can stand golf) don't just carry a driver in their bag. I mean, it could probably do it all, including putt. Hell, Tiger Woods could probably win with it. He drives with his putter in one commercial.

For that first shotgun, ask yourself, "What am I going to do with this gun?" The 20 is as good as the 12 for home defense, don't kid yourself. Either is gross overkill for self defense. Take that out of the equation and just figure on what game you're going to be hunting. If it's mostly waterfowl, you'll want a 12. Deer, you'll want a 12. Doves, quail, skeet, other upland game, 20 might be the better choice than a heavy pump 12. Now, a light O/U 12 would work, but light and 12 equal more recoil than a 20 for reasons I've already noted having to do with powder charge.

No one can tell ya what's best, but you. Me, I own both and use both.

Hell, I've lost track of the OP, but think it was about home defense. 20 if you don't like recoil is more'n enough. 12 works, of course. 20 is lighter and quicker handling and that's what I like about mine, along with being so short and compact.

 

[JohnBT]

Plastic shells were introduced by Remington in 1960, but they didn't take over the market immediately. One patent I turned up on line was dated 10/63.

Looking at the '67 Shooter's Bible, Rem, Fed and Win were all still selling paper and plastic shells in most the poplular loads and at the top of every page there's a big statement under each maker's name:

"Express (and then HighVelocity/Super-Speed/Super-X) 28 & .410 Gauge Shells Supplied With Paper Body Only"


A 20 will do about anything a standard 2.75" 12 will: waterfowl, deer, turkey, heck, my father was in on a black bear kill with his 20 ga. Model 12. One day he dropped 2 big turkeys with high brass #6. Dropped, as in out of the air. Two fast shots, two birds.

John

 

[Tim the student]

There isn't enough in ammo selection for you to do more with the 20 or even come close to the 12 in versatility.

What can you do with a 12 that you can't with a 20?

Deer? yup - my brother in law fills his tag every year with a 20
Bear? yup, apparently you can
Elk? don't know, but I would guess you can if you can get close enough
Moose? doubt it, but stranger things have happened. Not ideal, but I bet someone has
Birds (dove up to turkey)? yup - can't say I know anyone that hunts geese with a 20 though
Small Game? yup
Clays? yup
HD? yup

What more versatility do you want? What else does anyone here do with their shotguns?

I'd say they are pretty equally versatile. You aren't comparing a .22 to a .270 here.

 

[Mossberg535]

What more versatility do you want? What else does anyone here do with their shotguns?

being able to 'do' it and having enough options to 'do' it better is the issue.
If I want to try a few different loads of various sized steel shot I can find them in the stores around town here in 12 gauge. Not so easy in 20. Aint happening at all in most of the other gauges without going online and hopefully finding something.

Not to mention, yet again, that the 3.5" 12 gauge shells open up a whole new can of fun to bring the 12 up to 10 gauge levels and beyond.

Reduced 12 loads can mimic the 20 easily enough, but a 20 certainly isnt going to be increased to match the pressure tolerances of a 3.5" 12ga.
I'll take the 3.5" chambered 12ga anyday.

 

[JohnBT]

Ordering on line is easier, and sometimes less expensive, than driving to the store. Shooting a 20 isn't giving away much except a few pellets. Where's Steve with his tales of duck hunting with a 28?

I still have multiple boxes of 2.75" and 3" Hevi-Shot and I've never fired a 3.5" shell in my 3.5" SX-2. I don't think I'll ever need to unless I start hanging out with the sky busters. I bought it because I liked it and it fit me; the camo added a little saltwater proofing and it was like new and a heck of a deal - over $500 under the list price.

I'm not even sure I need the 3" shells, I did just fine with 2.75" Hevi-Shot in a black synthetic 1100 from Wal-Mart and an 870 Express before that.

I suppose being raised around 20 ga. guns has given me an education that isn't to be found in the hunting mags and on the tv shows I've watched. All those little pellets are going the same speed no matter what the length of the shell is.

John

 

[snooperman]

As Mossberg 535 said

The 12 just does most of it better than the 20. I would not give up my beautiful 20 ga Ithaca that I use for skeet and quail hunting. It is a great little gun , and one can substitute it for the 12 in many applications in the field, but the question is , is it the best gun for those applications. I do not think so. That is why more 12 gauges are sold because of its versatility in its performance. As for home defense, the 20 ga is quite addequate indeed. However, law enforcement, and the Military use the 12 ga because of its power and veratility for their applications. The little 20 ga only has one loading for home defense in buckshot, #3 buckshot- 23.4grains per pellet. The 12 gauge shell, because of its size can stack many different types of buckshot sizes making it much more versatile in power and longer distance shooting than the 20. Hence its greater use with law enforcement and the military. For these reasons, most sports writers have given the 12 guage shotgun the title of "KING OF THE SHOTGUNS". And it has been so for more than a century.

 

[JohnBT]

www.paraklesetechnologies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=20.GA.00.234.25

Tactical 20 Gauge 00 buckshot, 2 3/4"